UK nod to human cloning for research

[The Hierophant]

Dude, sucks to be a stem-cell-harvest embryo. Ah well, they'll never know what hits 'em. Now hurry up 'science' and give me my immortality!

[Dirty Meg]

A 14 day old embryo is not a human being. It is just a blob of cells. It has not yet developed heterogenous body structure. It has no brain. You might as well argue for the right to life of a veruca.

[Nightwing]

I think it is great! There is so much to be gained here. Dirty meg is right, it's an embryo not a human that is why they call it an embryo. Sure it's a living organism but that's all. I've know a great deal of pro-life people in my days and I have never seen one of them stick around for the lives they destroy. They refuse to accept responsibility because as far as they are concerned they saved a life. There is a lot more to life than being in an unborn state. There is so much information on the destructions of families and other lives due to uncared for children. I'm not saying use abortion for birth control but there are times it is the only option for the women.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Dirty Meg: A 14 day old embryo is not a human being.

In your opinion. Many people have the opinion it IS a human. You'd better be really really sure you're right, because if you're wrong, like I'm really really sure you are, it's mass murder of unthinkable proportion.

It is just a blob of cells.

As are you. You are just a blob of cells.

It has not yet developed heterogenous body structure. It has no brain.

So? It will. The only reason it won't is because another human kills it. Just like a two year old will never have a career because someone kills it, or a one year old doesn't walk or talk properly because someone kills it.

You might as well argue for the right to life of a veruca.

A veRRuca (#2) will not develop lungs, brain, heart, love, hate, music, disdain or anything else. An embryo will. WILL, not may do, perhaps, could might. Will. The only thing preventing it, is the direct intervention, the murder, by another human.

Also, removing a verruca will not leave the person who was carrying the verruca with emotion grief, psychological damage for years to come, physical damage that may prevent childbirth. THere are TWO victims of abortion - the mother and the child. This is not just about the child destroyed, but the mother as well.

[ 08-13-2004, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Nightwing: I think it is great! There is so much to be gained here.

Of course there is. That's not in question. But what is lost outweighs what is gained. Would you advocate the forced murder of you and your family, to gain a scientific breakthrough?

Dirty meg is right, it's an embryo not a human that is why they call it an embryo.

No she's wrong. We call it a human embryo, as distinct from any other embryo that will develop into any other being. Just as we call little humans, infants. It's not a PRECLUSIVE definition. It doesn't mean they're not human any more than an infant is not human because it has a clarifier attached to it. A human embryo develops into a human just like any other. Potential - given time and perfect health - is what defines us, not actuality. Thus mountain climbers and extreme sportsmen EXPAND THE DEFINITION of what "a human" can do, despite most humans never being able to do what they can. A human can climb a sheer mountain face unaided.

I've know a great deal of pro-life people in my days and I have never seen one of them stick around for the lives they destroy. They refuse to accept responsibility because as far as they are concerned they saved a life.

Then you need to get out more.
http://www.daybreakinc.org/ This group offer free accomodation for mothers who carry to full term, free counselling, will set up a mother in a family that help her raise the child. A close friend of mine who had two abortions said a huge factor in aborting, was she felt she had no-where to go, could not financially pay for accomodation. She would have been on the street with a child. DISEMPOWERMENT. This lack of choice kills more babies than anything else. WHERE IS SOCIETY that a woman feels she HAS TO prevent the most natural beautiful thing, the event that most humans end up describing as the most wonderful joyous day in their life??? Really big indicator that society has completely broken down.

You are correct that many "fathers" are the ones pushing for an abortion, refusing to take responsibility for no protection, or not keeping their willy in their pants. Nothing justifies taking the unborn childs life.

There is a lot more to life than being in an unborn state. There is so much information on the destructions of families and other lives due to uncared for children. I'm not saying use abortion for birth control but there are times it is the only option for the women. [/qb]

And that's what we should be changing. Check out the link to http://www.daybreakinc.org/ I was involved in an event for them a few months ago. They are saving the lives of children and mothers, and putting people back together.

[ 08-13-2004, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Nightwing]

Yoric, that's a great web site and full of hope, however they're not the ones I'm talking about. The pro-life fundamentalist who I have met, intimately, 1000s of times are the culpret. They are so abusive to get their point across and then they don't step to the plate. They are not informed of real options for these families and send people away without hope.
I have been to some meetings where they just want you to get warm bodies out there to protest.

I would much rather them spend their time and energy with the kids and families who are already born. Helping them should be their first priority.

I don't believe death or killing is wrong within the right situation. I would surely appreciate it if someone ended my life when it came to the point I couldn't function in any capacity. I don't want to get into a spiritual discusion but death to me can be very cleansing. I know these embryos can't make these decisions for themselves, but that doesn't change the fact it is the option some people have to take.

We don't spend the money for programs to be in places where people can get to without a great deal of hardship. If we can't get the people to these programs here, how are people going to get to them in less fortunate countries? There are doctors everywhere but not support groups. These support groups don't always work either.

I don't want to see women tring to self abort like it was before abortion became leagal either. We would be ending two lives then one potential and one in her prime.
The answer has to be in some sort of socialist society, and I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon. We would give up so much of what makes our lives enjoyable.

[Dirty Meg]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Dirty Meg: A 14 day old embryo is not a human being.

In your opinion. Many people have the opinion it IS a human. You'd better be really really sure you're right, because if you're wrong, like I'm really really sure you are, it's mass murder of unthinkable proportion.

It is just a blob of cells.

As are you. You are just a blob of cells.

It has not yet developed heterogenous body structure. It has no brain.

So? It will. The only reason it won't is because another human kills it. Just like a two year old will never have a career because someone kills it, or a one year old doesn't walk or talk properly because someone kills it.

You might as well argue for the right to life of a veruca.

A veRRuca (#2) will not develop lungs, brain, heart, love, hate, music, disdain or anything else. An embryo will. WILL, not may do, perhaps, could might. Will. The only thing preventing it, is the direct intervention, the murder, by another human.

Also, removing a verruca will not leave the person who was carrying the verruca with emotion grief, psychological damage for years to come, physical damage that may prevent childbirth. THere are TWO victims of abortion - the mother and the child. This is not just about the child destroyed, but the mother as well. [/QUOTE]An embryo may eventual develop a brain. However, until it does, there is no reason to give it moral rights. A sperm cell and an egg cell may eventualy, if joined, develop a brain. But no reasonable person would suggest that a sperm or an egg should be considered human. How early in its pre-existance do you want to give a potential human rights? As an embryo? A Zygote? A sperm? A coy smile?
Your immune system is killing things, things with as much awareness as a 14 day old embryo, by the million.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Dirty Meg: An embryo may eventual develop a brain. However, until it does, there is no reason to give it moral rights. A sperm cell and an egg cell may eventualy, if joined, develop a brain. But no reasonable person would suggest that a sperm or an egg should be considered human. How early in its pre-existance do you want to give a potential human rights? As an embryo? A Zygote? A sperm? A coy smile? Your immune system is killing things, things with as much awareness as a 14 day old embryo, by the million.

The embryo being human life is but one part of the argument Meg. Have you ignored the reality that mothers are victims also?

A sperm and an egg will not develop into anything. It requires proaction on the part of humans to turn infertile seed into a dependent life.

Dependency is not an indicator of lack of life. Being in the early stages of development is not an indicator or lack of life. You are ignoring time in your assesment. All that seperates a human embryo from any other fully developed human is TIME. Direct intervention on the behalf of a doctor, is what prevents full term pregnancy. What seperates a sperm from a human is fertilisation. Given all the time in the world, the sperm, or egg, will never develop into anything, without proaction.

Self awareness is not an indicator of life. Babies aren't self aware for a good while out of the womb. Initially they perceive all as being part of them, only after a while, discerning seperation, understanding of self.

Look at the definition of a baby. How could you call that human if an in utero baby is not? No self awareness, unable to walk, use language (lie) or feed itself. Totally dependent on the mother for food as it was inside the womb. Both need oxygen. In utero, the oxygen comes from the mothers lungs, post natal, from it's own lungs.

You're ignoring and robbing mothers of one of the most beautiful aspects of pregnancy, that being that the two lives are one for nine months. They are biune. Conjoined in a way no other life is. It's a beauty, a wonder, not an indicator that the baby is less human. Yes it is part of the mother, yes it is a seperate life form.

Parallel truth, rather than preclusive linear.

I find having spirituality helps in the perception of all this. I see God/Jesus/Holy Spirit as being triune. Jesus as being fully God and (parallel truth) fully human. I see God as being outside time, and knowing a person wholly, how they are, will be and can be. that he knows the fully developed personality before it is born.

Parallel truth is in a man being a father, a son, a brother all at once.

I would give human rights from the moment the fertilised egg clings to the wall of the womb, and starts developing into it's full potential. (Killing a pregnant mother is a grievous crime that takes two lives.)

Otherwise you have the odd situation of trying to find a wierd line during pregnancy. 8 weeks? Where is the dividing line? 8 weeks, 1 hour, 34 minutes, 7 seconds? How is an embryo 1 second younger than the magical line any less human? Once it starts developing all change is GRADUAL. There is no clear line, until the first breath is taken. But then you have the ridiculous situation where you could kill a baby as it comes out of the womb, but not once it's breathed.

Fertilisation IS a very clear dividing line that leaves no room for confusion. Once the fertilised egg has clung to the wall, it's all go-go-go.

Don't want a kid? Don't have intercourse, or use condoms, the pill, withdrawal method, diaphragm, or a combination of all. I don't want a child outside marriage, so I don't have intercourse. No way I can "screw up" by staying in to long, having a condom break, having her forget the pill or whatever. I take responsibility to ensure I don't regret a moment of passion.

[Nightwing]

Yoric, our world is full of different people all with different perspectives on life and death. It's nieve to think one rule works for everyone. Diversity makes us special, not every mother feels the same way as you about their pregnancy. If we all acted and thought the same this world would be very still and boaring. I applaude your passion but there are billions of people who think differently and none of them the same to eachother. Celebrate the diversity in life, so spread your good news, and remember it's good news from your perspective. Everyone else feels as passiate as you do and their world is completely different than anyone elses.

You're right scientificly but anyone can analyze back to the conception to a different scientific perspective and still be right. It's that line we all draw for ourselves. For everone it is different.
I don't think life can come down to a scientific explanation.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Nightwing: Yoric, our world is full of different people all with different perspectives on life and death. It's nieve to think one rule works for everyone. Diversity makes us special, not every mother feels the same way as you about their pregnancy. If we all acted and thought the same this world would be very still and boaring. I applaude your passion but there are billions of people who think differently and none of them the same to eachother. Celebrate the diversity in life, so spread your good news, and remember it's good news from your perspective. Everyone else feels as passiate as you do and their world is completely different than anyone elses. You're right scientificly but anyone can analyze back to the conception to a different scientific perspective and still be right. It's that line we all draw for ourselves. For everone it is different. I don't think life can come down to a scientific explanation.

Unfortunately I reject the notion of subjective reality and hold to absolute truth. Seeing as you hold to subjective truth, I am right in there being an absolute truth, as that's my subjective reality.

Regardless, ask any parent whether the birth of their first kid was the most amazing day in their life. 100% of any parents I've known have claimed it so. I'm not just speaking from my own experience.

Secondly, the mental anguish of women who abort is a factual statistic from groups such as daybreak who deal with post abortion counselling. The number of women who reabort after the first is also shockingly high. 100% of the women I've spoken to who aborted, said they felt they had no choice, that no-one counselled them against aborting, and that actually they felt a social pressure TO abort. As though having the child would be somehow unfair to the child, their family, themselves.

Now, even if my 100% is only 10% of cases, that's appalling that women should be feeling this way. ProCHOICE should be just that. Instead it's a myth. There is no choice is most cases.

Back to subjective reality, either it is a life or it isn't. That unfortunatly is preclusive. It's either alive or it is not.