Security guard who shot thief dead could face murder charges

[pritchke]

It is hard to say.

She probaly should have shot his tires out. But she did get bashed in the head pretty good. Not sure I would be able to think clearly with that kind of hit. Doubt I would have the greatest vision with blood pouring over my face either. The guy was a fool and he messed with the wrong guard. Case closed!!

[Morgeruat]

A few things to consider, at least here in the US (and in the military) a female law enforcement person is legally permitted to skip other derrent methods when faced with a male suspect, ie they can pull a gun instantly, without resorting to other shows of force (saying stop, brandishing weapon, etc) warning shots are neither encouraged nor permitted, nor as "shots to disable" and most gun training venues train you to shoot "center mass", ie a kill shot.

Her situation is a bit different as he had already left her and made a run for his car which definitely complicates the matter. Still I think that it was justified.

btw what is a knuckle duster? is it like Brass Knuckles?

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Morgeruat: btw what is a knuckle duster? is it like Brass Knuckles?

[Morgeruat]

That would be a yes then, thanks for the pic Mem.

[Timber Loftis]

There is no "defense of property" to use of deadly force under the common law. Only if her life was in immediate danger can she justify the use of force. If she shot him while he was fleeing, she's in for a jail term, all other things being equal, I predict. This is the reason police never shoot anyone who's fleeing, folks.

Now, some states in the US (notably Texas and Louisiana) formerly had "fleeing felon" laws where you could shoot a felon in the night who was fleeing -- but as far as I know those laws have been done away with as well.

This opinion does not reflect possible descrepancies under the current British statutes and laws, which are beyond my ability to accurately research.

[ 07-27-2004, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Stratos]

Nice pic, Memnoch. Fallout 2?

[Larry_OHF]

Did she then kill the thief in self-defence because she feared for her life after being smashed in the head with a metal knuckleduster pretty badly or did she shoot him to prevent the loss of the $30000? In that case, did she need to shoot him at all? It's only money, after all.

If it had been me, I would have watched that guy walking off, thinking..."man...they're gonna blame me for the loss of this money, as it is my job to keep that cash in my possession." I would have shot him, too...mostly because of the bleeding head thing.

It is the heat of the moment thing, where she was popped a good one in her nogging, and her mind at the time told her she was justified. She was no ordinary citizen, she was legally allowed to have that gun and was a security guard. She must have felt that she was doing an okay thing.

I will be interested in hearing the end of this.

[Chewbacca]

a moral of the story:

Never bring a knuckleduster to a gun fight.

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Larry_OHF: quote: Did she then kill the thief in self-defence because she feared for her life after being smashed in the head with a metal knuckleduster pretty badly or did she shoot him to prevent the loss of the $30000? In that case, did she need to shoot him at all? It's only money, after all.

If it had been me, I would have watched that guy walking off, thinking..."man...they're gonna blame me for the loss of this money, as it is my job to keep that cash in my possession." I would have shot him, too...mostly because of the bleeding head thing.

It is the heat of the moment thing, where she was popped a good one in her nogging, and her mind at the time told her she was justified. She was no ordinary citizen, she was legally allowed to have that gun and was a security guard. She must have felt that she was doing an okay thing.

I will be interested in hearing the end of this. [/QUOTE]Well, she apparently can't remember firing the gun but knows that it went off...her story is that she was traumatised after being smashed in the head by a knuckleduster...

Guard has 'patchy memory' of shooting thief By Michelle Cazzulino and Evelyn Yamine July 28, 2004 . AS a security guard who shot dead a thief was treated for her injuries yesterday, Sydney was divided by one question - is she a victim or a vigilante? . Karen Brown Victim or vigilante ... Karen Brown's actions have split public opinion. Pic: John Grainger and Tracee Lea. . Police are waiting to interview Karen Brown who is said to have a patchy memory of shooting dead William Aquilina on Monday afternoon. . But opinions are vehemently divided over whether the guard should be charged with his murder. . "She's not a cold-blooded murderer like other criminals," small business owner Djuro Cikaric said. "She was just defending her livelihood." . Mr Cikaric, from Orange, killed 18-year-old Andrew Petty when he walked into his food store brandishing a rifle in 1996. . He did not face trial after the DPP decided not to press charges. Yesterday, he said Ms Brown would struggle with memories of Monday's attack but should not be charged. . "You get nightmares," he said. "A lot of nightmares and for many years to come." . Ms Brown's barrister Joseph Busuttil met with her for an hour yesterday and said she was having "memory problems". . "He pushed her to the ground and dragged her along the car park ... he tried to rip the bag off her back and she refused to let him have it," he said. . "She's very traumatised. She's traumatised with what's happened to her and ... with what happened to the man who robbed her." . Mr Busuttil has spoken with police but Ms Brown has not yet been formally interviewed. . "She's very fragile," Mr Busuttil said. . "Let's be realistic. She's a woman and she got beaten up. This guy had no compunction about coming up to a woman with a knuckleduster and tried to beat her brains out." . But he added: "Without knowing all the facts just yet, my immediate thoughts are that she has serious legal problems. . "She knows he attacked her. She knows she got dragged on the ground with the bag and she knows the gun went off but that's as far as she remembers." . He said Ms Brown, a member of the Blacktown Pistol Club, had worked in the security industry for four years. She had not been attacked prior to Monday. . "It's not her job to be bashed and brutalised and as far as I'm concerned, she's the victim," he said. "I think it's something that will stay with her forever." . Ms Brown was to be assessed by a psychiatrist after the shooting and will undergo a brain scan today. She ventured out of her two-storey Rooty Hill home once to go to the doctor and spent the rest of day resting inside. . Her de facto husband George Muratore last night said his wife may never fully recover from the ordeal. "She'll have to try and get over it," he told Channel 7. . "It's going to take a lot of struggling. I think it's something that'll stay with her forever." . Meanwhile, Victims of Crime Assistance League executive director Robyn Cotterell-Jones supported Ms Brown but said she should be charged with murder because what she did was unlawful. . "I can understand why she did it and I think she is going to suffer awfully because of it," Ms Cotterell-Jones said. . "I don't think the legal system is very fair. She made a decision on the spur of the moment after being attacked but it will look different under legal scrutiny in the cold light of day." . She also sympathised with the family of the dead man. . "No matter what he was doing, he is someone's son. Both are victims of crime," she said. . NSW Council for Civil Liberties president Cameron Murphy said the shooting highlighted the endemic problems within the security industry. . "I'd like to see the government regulate the industry so security guards were appropriately trained and know their powers," he said. "Too often they are placed in a position where they are made to act like police. It is an unreasonable expectation." . In 1995, former Sydney police officer Said Morgan killed a man who molested two of his relatives. He was cleared of murder at trial. . A year later, antiques dealer Anton Lees from Dural shot dead a raider. The coroner later decided it was self-defence. In 1997, Kolja Nikolic of Willmott was found not to have committed any wrongdoing after shooting a man who tried to rob him. . The Daily Telegraph . Source: www.news.com.au

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[Morgeruat]

hmm, interesting, to me it sounds like she went up to the car and was going to demand that he return the $$ but the gun went off instead, considering she was very likely disoriented, still quite a bit stunned, and bleeding profusely she probably didn't realise she had pulled the trigger enough to fire (increasingly likely if the gun had a hair trigger)