History will always repeat

[Khazadman Risen]

You cannot treat terrorists as simple criminals. They require stronger methods than going after them with warrants. They laugh at those tactics.

TL, didn't Rambo take place in the state of Washington?

[Timber Loftis]

Movie (Actually "First Blood") = Pacific NW, Washington seems correct
Book = Kentucky (And Rambo dies at the end)

[Yorick]

History repeats if you are unaware of it. The Jews are and have always been very mindful of tradition, history and matters of the past.

[Black Baron]

Faceman i posted it in hebrew merely because i failed to find anything else in english. as you have noticed i try to post english articles. Alas i am not good with the searching bit, i know only 3 sources of info-haarez, maariv, ediot ahronot, but when i search for "yesterday's news" i am required to pay money in order to see them. I apologize if i gave any offence.
Your link told me about the stock markets, 10 kittens and a bag of wool. It is beside the point.

Now to the matters at hand.

We cannot use other forces than military or SWAT (which we use in Jenin, Nablus, Hevron etc.)
When you have land mines and snipers SWAT is not enough by itself. It cannot stay i a place for too long. Best to use IDF-More efective and far more cheaper, then go-enter-go-enter of the SWAT. Also we have much more IDF troops than SWAT ones.
Terrorrists will not meekly say-i am sorry, i surender. Use of force is a neseccity.
The mentality of people is different. You cannot compare between the reaction of Palestinian and resident of USA who is let's say english. The reasons and the motives as well as the reaction itself are different.


Assassinations-Rantisi was a part of HAMAS. What proof do you need? He was guilty, and had to be executed. The same with Yasin.
BTW-did any one notice any mega TA against civilians here? These little ******* cannot carry out anything. The gates to hell are closed.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Black Baron: Assassinations-Rantisi was a part of HAMAS. What proof do you need? He was guilty, and had to be executed. The same with Yasin. BTW-did any one notice any mega TA against civilians here? These little ******* cannot carry out anything. The gates to hell are closed.

Ok, but Ariel Sharon is equally guilty, and has to be executed too. Likewise, when you next enter your compulsary military service and take up arms you deserve to die too. It has been nice hearing your opinions though. I hope your death will be quick and painless and that you will never know what hits you.

[Grojlach]

History doesn't repeat itself, ignorant morons repeat history.

[Timber Loftis]

When you have land mines and snipers SWAT is not enough by itself. ....Best to use IDF-More efective and far more cheaper, then go-enter-go-enter of the SWAT.

Agreed.

Also we have much more IDF troops than SWAT ones.

Don't know about your situation, probably not true here in the USA.

Terrorrists will not meekly say-i am sorry, i surender. Use of force is a neseccity. The mentality of people is different.

Agreed again.

Assassinations-Rantisi was a part of HAMAS. What proof do you need? He was guilty, and had to be executed. The same with Yasin.

Well, to detract for a moment -- wouldn't capturing them and bringing them to trial be better? Of course, there are the logistics of the capture, the amount of lives lost in the capture, and the ensuing political embroglio, because a captured terrorist causes more bombings and hijackings in order to bargain for their release. In short, I wish all first world countries had the BALLS (or chutzpah, if you prefer) to deal with terrorists with such finality. Bringing them to justice can be a bloddy affair in and of itself.

History doesn't repeat itself, ignorant morons repeat history.

That's real thoughtful. Thanks for the input -- even though it can be refuted by common sense, research, and the posts on this forum. But, thanks so much anyway for your words of wisdom.

[Faceman]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: When you have land mines and snipers SWAT is not enough by itself. ....Best to use IDF-More efective and far more cheaper, then go-enter-go-enter of the SWAT.

Agreed.

Also we have much more IDF troops than SWAT ones.

Don't know about your situation, probably not true here in the USA.

Terrorrists will not meekly say-i am sorry, i surender. Use of force is a neseccity. The mentality of people is different.

Agreed again.

Assassinations-Rantisi was a part of HAMAS. What proof do you need? He was guilty, and had to be executed. The same with Yasin.

Well, to detract for a moment -- wouldn't capturing them and bringing them to trial be better? Of course, there are the logistics of the capture, the amount of lives lost in the capture, and the ensuing political embroglio, because a captured terrorist causes more bombings and hijackings in order to bargain for their release. In short, I wish all first world countries had the BALLS (or chutzpah, if you prefer) to deal with terrorists with such finality. Bringing them to justice can be a bloddy affair in and of itself.[/QUOTE]I agree to some extent, however the flaw in your argument is that you automatically assume that 90% of all Palestinians are terrorists. Of course you need excessive force when attacking a fortification or hideout of some sort. But you just can't raze an entire village just because there are a certain number of criminals (organised and heavily armed criminals, but criminals nonetheless) hiding there.
For the assassination:
Terrorists will terrorize, that's what they do. Now I don't see the point in compromising one's integrity and justice system because you fear that terrorists may start terrorizing.
Again I say use the appropriate force instead of excessive force.

It's also an ideological problem and of course a problem of law (regional and international). Israel is in a constant civil war state and AFAIK there's not one prominent historical example where this has worked out for the ones in power.
Israel and the US tend to respond to the terrorist threat with inappropriate and (strictly called) illegal methods and support this decisions with ideology.
Let's go way back: Some years ago (pre 9/11) Clinton administration got word of a terrorist camp in Sudan. They immediately attacked it with Cruise missiles.
Now Sudan is an independent country and in my book this was an act of war. However since nobody inthe Western world (speak US, Canada, Europe) really cares and they don't have the force (and stupidity) to respond they let it slide.
Back to my mob analogy:
Some regions of Sicily are almost completely under control of the mafia and Italy does little or nothing about it.
Now if there was a "terrorist incident" involving the mob and intelligence could prove that the ones involved have ties to the Sicilian mob would the US start bombing Sicily?
And don't tell me the situation there is different, because it isn't. The mafia rules the island and although there are many innocents living there they don't dare to cross her. I dare to day that it's not a lot different in Gaza. Many Palestinians don't agree with the terrorists but they fear the Hamas.
How would you feel if you were surrounded by criminals (who don't wish you harm, but don't really care about you or if you get killed) and the police (who don't wish you harm, but don't really care about you or if you get killed)
I'd feel pretty shitty.

[Black Baron]

Faceman- your grasp of the situation in israel is somehow flawed. We do not have any civil war. We fight terrorrists that are not our civilians.

What amount of force would you suggest, having years of military and antiguerilla warfare experience?
Sooner or later you will reach the conclusion that we use what is necessary, not because we like them, but because we have a severe lack of funds.


We raised only these buildings that were necessary to raise. We do not go and kill them because we like to, nor we damage their property because we like to. If we wanted to kill them all, one (!!!) artillery strike-No Gaza. One artillery strike- no tunnels, no Rafah, nothing.
The fact that we do not do it shows something.


Hierophant-I am puzzled. The ideology of Israel is different from Hamase's ideology. I do what i do because i defend my country against peop..no sorry, barbarians, that their official agenda is to kill me. They claim that i am a jew and a zionist, things that i am conspiciously guilty of. Since that it is their extent of the proof agains me and Sharon, i find that it is my right to "bullet spray" the ****** until they reconsider. My proof is something else. I look at their agenda and see number 1: "kill the jews". i look at number 2 and see: "destroy the zionist state!!!!". I am sorry but they declared war on us. Suits me, i was never a pacifist.
Regarding my death- WTF?? According to your logic the americans also had to die when they attacked hitler. He was not trialed. Yet i am sure that he would have been assassinated if the opportunity presented itself.

[Faceman]

no civil war eh?
terrorists are not your civilians?
In my understanding when people of two nations/countries engage in a heavy conflict like this it's war.
If the armyis on the streets for several years in a row it's war.
however if this all happens within a country it is civil war.
If it is not a civil war then it is a police action and if so collateral damage is not acceptable and culprits must be tried and convicted.
Of course the Americans did the right thing in attacking Hitler and of course they should have assassinated him if possible (whatever the outcome may have been). But that was war!
Since there's no war (or civil war) in your country you can't just go aroun eliminating people you disapprove of (even if you know they are mass murderers). You can do that in war and under martial law, but since none of these seems to apply here...

Without any practical expierence in warfare I can tell you from my history textbooks that the way Israeli forces are taking won't work. It never has and never will.
Unless of course - as Timber remarked - you nearly eradicate the Palestinian people (worked fine with the Native Americans for example).

So if I got you right Israel does not have a civil war situation but merely a very creative justice system