Hundreds of thousands march in Washington

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: She drops out of school and raises a child whom she resents. Woman B gets pregnant at age 18, but realizes that she is in no position to raise a child. She aborts it and waits until she's thirty to raise a child in a loving environment..

How do you think the human race survived without abortion for millenia?
The grandparents. In "the village" the grandparents took a more active role in raising children, because they were mellower, had more time, and had more wisdom.

I have a collaborator who was raped at age 12 and became pregnant. She had the child. Her mother helped her raise the child. She is now 24 and has the most beautiful 12 year old daughter. An act of hate was turned around, and a wonderful human has been given love, and brought those around her much joy and happiness.

You present intellectual hypotheticals, yet the reality is life has so many twists and turns, that, though seemingly negative, can be catalysts for unspeakable joy, if taken on the chin.

The child had love, a close relationship with mother and grandmother, the mother finished schooling and has an incredibly sucessful career as a songwriter and singer.

There is always an alternative to killing. Humans killing humans should be an anathaema to humanity. No government killing citizens, no murders, no murders in art, no abortions no euthenasia, no suicide. Make the concept of humans taking human life, so unthinkable, it becomes as rare as say, cannibalism.

[Jerr Conner]

The only problem I have with most pro-lifers I've interacted with is their hypocrisy.

They talk about how important the child's life is, how it's murder, and how the kids should live a life, yet they're not willing to adopt any kids nor pay welfare to those women whose only other option than adoption was abortion, nor foster care those kids.

What happened to the importance of that child? Or is it only important as long as it's birthed?

As far as abortion is concerned, no real opinion here except for thos pro-lifers that claim to give a damn about kids when they don't.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Originally posted by Yorick: I know a girl who went to that march. She's never had an abortion. I know a large number of women who have had abortions. All, all, all without exception are filled with irreconcilable grief at what they did, at the life they took. All wish there had been just ONE VOICE counselling them against destroying the life of their unborn child. But there were none. And all they are left with is deep grief and regret. Hundreds of thousands were at a march millions have forever been denied the opportunity to attend. I wonder how many others who marched never had abortions, and how many women who have aborted sat home and wept. Thankfully I know one woman of incredible bravery, who will be speaking at an abortion couselling clinic, trying to help women come to terms with their grief and move on. She's gotten the courage to take her private darkest grief, weather it and help other women heal. Kudos and salutations. Meanwhile hundreds of thousands marched on Washington screaming for the right to not only destroy countless more human lives, but also send countless more women into extreme mental anguish as a result. What a wonderful caring society we live in. So educated and life respecting. So open minded and compassionate.

Funny, I know a few women who had abortions, and while they're not proud of what they did, they realize it was the right choice, and would make that choice again if needed.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: She drops out of school and raises a child whom she resents. Woman B gets pregnant at age 18, but realizes that she is in no position to raise a child. She aborts it and waits until she's thirty to raise a child in a loving environment..

How do you think the human race survived without abortion for millenia?
The grandparents. In "the village" the grandparents took a more active role in raising children, because they were mellower, had more time, and had more wisdom.

I have a collaborator who was raped at age 12 and became pregnant. She had the child. Her mother helped her raise the child. She is now 24 and has the most beautiful 12 year old daughter. An act of hate was turned around, and a wonderful human has been given love, and brought those around her much joy and happiness.

You present intellectual hypotheticals, yet the reality is life has so many twists and turns, that, though seemingly negative, can be catalysts for unspeakable joy, if taken on the chin.
[/QUOTE]Why yes, I suppose I do. You have a beautiful outlook on life, but I'm afraid reality isn't always that beautiful. Which is worse, do you suppose? Having an abortion or abandoning a child in a garbage can?

[Timber Loftis]

Which is worse, do you suppose? Having an abortion or abandoning a child in a garbage can?

An interesting question, actually. I'd say an abortion is better because the child has no consciousness yet (presumably). Nevertheless, I don't see that this rebuts Yorick's example -- who didn't leave the child in a garbage can.

[promethius9594]

theyre both murder in my eyes. if anything the baby should be taken to an adoption agency. whether or not the baby is killed pre or post delivery doesnt make it any less dead.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Which is worse, do you suppose? Having an abortion or abandoning a child in a garbage can?

An interesting question, actually. I'd say an abortion is better because the child has no consciousness yet (presumably). Nevertheless, I don't see that this rebuts Yorick's example -- who didn't leave the child in a garbage can. [/QUOTE]He painted a rosy example of a community willing to raise a child. I'm saying that, sadly, this isn't always the case.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: He painted a rosy example of a community willing to raise a child. I'm saying that, sadly, this isn't always the case.

Well, I don't know if a one-armed abortion survivor has a "rosey" story. Nevertheless, allow me to paint a less rosey picture, but one that nevertheless indicates adoption should be a seiously-considered alternative to abortion. First I've got to repeat Jay Leno's joke last night:

One of the networks is running a reality show where 5 couples compete to adopt a baby. That's so sick, even Fox didn't want to do it. However, the other 4 contestants don't go home empty-handed -- they get to adopt a crack baby of their choice.

So, Jay's joke may have poor taste, but it certainly reflects reality. People are falling over themselves to adopt kids here. They fly to South America, Russia, and China to adopt children. If the child is lucky enough to have white or light skin, it will have lawyers, doctors, professors, etc. literally fighting each other for it. A child is not shit-outta-luck just because the mother didn't keep it.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

::nods:: Of course, adoption is preferable to abortion, certainly. And partial-birth abortion is a horrid procedure. But I feel that adoption-abortion should be the woman's choice.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: quote: Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Which is worse, do you suppose? Having an abortion or abandoning a child in a garbage can?

An interesting question, actually. I'd say an abortion is better because the child has no consciousness yet (presumably). Nevertheless, I don't see that this rebuts Yorick's example -- who didn't leave the child in a garbage can. [/QUOTE]He painted a rosy example of a community willing to raise a child. I'm saying that, sadly, this isn't always the case. [/QUOTE]And why not? These are choice humans are in control of. What kind of society puts women in a situation where they feel they have to destroy life? Where is the community? the breakdown of the "village" and the extended family, and now the nuclear family is at the heart of this issue. The breakdown of COMMUNITY directly leads to the murders of unborn children. Horrific in the extreme.

As per Timbers example, kids have been left on church doorsteps for centuries. Moses was left in a little boat in the swamp. Taliesin the Bard was abandoned. It is better to be left in a garbage can or aborted? Garbage can, no contest. While there is life there is hope.

And that is the whole point. In putting women in a situation where they believe they are "choosing" what's best for their life, we not only destroy the mental health of these women, or damage their ability to bear children in future, but most importantly, WE DESTROY HUMAN LIFE. How is it that "choice" overrides life? YES children are inconvenient. I was an "accident" that caused my parents problems as they adjusted to an inexpected pregnancy. So what. So many humans are. LIFE is unexpected. My point about the 12 year old mother was that is SEEMINGLY bad - just because it is unexpected and different to what you planned - is not necessarily BAD. Women when they abort are throwing away countless blessings that arise from taking lifes difficulties on the chin and adjusting. Human adaptability is part of what makes us so dominant over the planet. It's why we survive. No the "rosy picture" doesn't always happen, but it CAN if people CHOOSE it. I have a schoolfriend who was raped and had the child as well. That's two rapes that resulted in two births, and two beautiful humans now on the planet.