Powell & Kay on Iraq's WMDs

[pritchke]

As poor as the Iraqis were in regards of freedom there are wars in Africa were children are captured and told to fight or be shot. There are people/leaders in Africa doing atrocities that make Saddam and its regime look like Santa Claus and his elves. Yet the world stands by and does nothing, yet with Iraq the leaders spilt some self righteous BS about human rights and freedom as there reason. I just don't buy into that game when there are worse places in the world to be dealt with. I guess what is good for the Gander isn't necessarily good for the goose.

[ 01-27-2004, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Donut: Just when did the reason for war become a humanitarian one? Can someone put a date on it?

I think the "humanitarian" reason for invading Iraq started being pushed in earnest last summer when it first seemed like no stockpiles of WMDs would be found.

Of course using the word humanitarian to describe a reason for war leaves the worst type of taste in my mouth. I suppose it works in the context of removing a murderous dictator, but I do wish there was a better word to describe such motivations considering the actions involved in the waging of war are really the furtherest thing from humanitarian I can imagine.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: No, it's a demurrer. This discussion is as pointless as balrogs and wings, there is no clear home-run or slam dunk for either size (sorry for the USA baseball/basketball metaphors). We can circle jerk the topic again all we want, but at the moment I'd rather do more interesting things.

You may think there is no "slam dunks or home runs" but I find Kay's and Powell's recent words to be be both newsworthy and worth discussing considering the sharp contrast on how the war was sold last year.

Feel free not to think it is important or worth discussing but I have to ask why even comment in the first place if you have more intersting things to do anyway?

[Timber Loftis]

Boredom?

Seriously, though, to make the point that it's useless to debate this any further. Yes, the US/UK admin had good intel, and a lot of history (including Saddam bombing his own people -- the kurds), to support the idea that Iraq likely had some form of WMD (mustard gas counts!).

Becuase there are good arguments on both sides, I'd rather focus on another angle. It's that simple.

[Donut]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: You may think there is no "slam dunks or home runs" but I find Kay's and Powell's recent words to be be both newsworthy and worth discussing considering the sharp contrast on how the war was sold last year.

Yes - I too have noticed an ever increasing number of RBI's!

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Boredom? Seriously, though, to make the point that it's useless to debate this any further. Yes, the US/UK admin had good intel, and a lot of history (including Saddam bombing his own people -- the kurds), to support the idea that Iraq likely had some form of WMD (mustard gas counts!). Becuase there are good arguments on both sides, I'd rather focus on another angle. It's that simple.

Fair enough. I do agree we have had quite alot of "does too" "do not" "did too" "do not" discussions on this topic. I was shooting for the "we were told one thing before but now we actually got another thing" angle. That we have moved beyond speculation to actual results.

Anyway, it seems that bad intel will be the ultimate fall guy in this debacle. It is, after all, quite politically convient to chalk up page after page of Bush/Cheney/Blair speechmaking to bad intel.

[ 01-28-2004, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Link]

Then I think we should all attack America. That country has WoMD, is run by untrustworthy people trying to force their opinions, treaties and such to other people without any reason.

I can't believe you guys say "well, there was evidence enough, so the war was justifyable in the end". So now we can do things, even if there's no evidence? A simple thought is enough?

Don't make me laugh. I hope America and Britain get a good decent smiting for this all, if not worse. Bye-bye Tony! Bye-bye George! Make sure to send me a postcard from Micronesia, where you will be running your own private Island!

[Davros]

Well I managed to read through the 5 pages last night and this morning [img]smile.gif[/img] . That was a nostalgic ramble, and I looked back and remain content with what I had to say, the bits I opposed and the bits I supported.

I was for the war, and I remain content with the decision to remove Saddam, but mine (and I believe the general Australian's) sentiment changed with Coin's UN presentation. As I posted on that thread, support in OZ immediately dropped from 70+% to 55% simply on the lack of strength of that presentation. It was generally perceived to be a smoke and mirrors thing by the public, and many people made up their own mind at that stage that if that was the best proof the US had to hand then someone was probably telling a few "porkies".

One thing is for sure - the people who suspected Colin's speech back then did not deserve to be offering an apology "back then" for not swallowing what he had to say. Time has proven their stance on WOMD correct. While I can see why that would produce tit for tat calls for return apologies I just don't see either side being prepared to bend the knee, so things become circular.

Mind you - this latest news has been a real sinking curve ball to some , and the ref needs to reach for his pocket . Oooh - for some reason I got a mental image of the UN marching into the oval office and handing out red cards [img]smile.gif[/img] .

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Link: Then I think we should all attack America. That country has WoMD, is run by untrustworthy people trying to force their opinions, treaties and such to other people without any reason. I can't believe you guys say "well, there was evidence enough, so the war was justifyable in the end". So now we can do things, even if there's no evidence? A simple thought is enough? Don't make me laugh. I hope America and Britain get a good decent smiting for this all, if not worse. Bye-bye Tony! Bye-bye George! Make sure to send me a postcard from Micronesia, where you will be running your own private Island!

A few things here. One, seems you're posting in emotion and being harsh. Two, this just may be a post that could get you in trouble these days -- are you so dedicated that you're willing to suffer an Ashcroft Scarlet Letter T branding?

Finally, to the extent you are insulting the US or wishing ill on us, I'm almost tempted to trot out a "might makes right" and "whattya gonna do" argument just to piss you off. I must say a big "So what, we do what we want" tirade always comes to mind when people insult my country.

But, then again, I'm too tired for that right now -- plus it's not clear you meant to bash the USA as opposed the the Wee Little Monkee -- so I'll just wish you a good evening. [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]

[Link]

OK, so I may have been emotional, but your reply in the "so what, we do what we want" is just what makes me angry every time. The attitude of the US is unbelievable in that bad sense of the word. We're living in a world that will not allow one country to behave as it wants to. One way or the other we have to coexist Timber, and you can jump high or low about the "might of America" and that it "makes right" but that attitude is exactly what the world doesn't need now.

Other than that, a good evening to you too, Timber [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img] I'm not a bad guy, just getting emotional on stuff that I think people tend to forget about or discard to easily.