Will the real U.S. unemployment rate please stand up!

[skywalker]

There was a story about the minimum wage increase in Burlington VT on the local News. The woman who just moved there about a year and a half ago said it was hard to make ends meet when a fairly small apartment goes for $1100 a month. Vermont is not a high wage state, though Burlington may be, but for a waitress to afford it is impossible.

Though everyone has a choice of where to work and where to live, it is harder in a tight job market no matter where you are. Not everyone is college graduate material and not everyone has high wage potential. Some just want to survive this thing called life and have a little joy in the process.

Mark

[skywalker]

BTW This thread is really not about me, so I publicly apologize to Chewbacca for the derailment of the topic. It does happen a lot here, though.

Mark

PS: MagiK, I did go through this whole distasteful procedure in 2001 (through 9/11 - not a good time to be home alone) for 7 months and know about newspaper ads being the least of sources. I do appreciate your helpful words, though (you too, Cerek). [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 01-02-2004, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: skywalker ]

[Donut]

So if a man mows his neighbour's lawn for one hour a week and is paid for it he isn't included in the unemployment figures.

[Timber Loftis]

Yes, MagiK and Cerek -- you are right. Shitty employment IS employment. And, good news just seems to keep rolling in, as we're expecting to see lots of shitty new jobs this month.

Oh, to dream of flipping burgers in the day and working at the mall at night -- all because your college education ain't worth squat because we've lost or outsourced our good blue collar jobs to India.

All that's really left are crappy jobs on one end and the white collar jobs like mine on the other. But, as long as you guys keep wanting to take it up the rear, those on my end of the spectrum will be happy to keep giving it to you.

[img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by skywalker: There was a story about the minimum wage increase in Burlington VT on the local News. The woman who just moved there about a year and a half ago said it was hard to make ends meet when a fairly small apartment goes for $1100 a month. Vermont is not a high wage state, though Burlington may be, but for a waitress to afford it is impossible. Though everyone has a choice of where to work and where to live, it is harder in a tight job market no matter where you are. Not everyone is college graduate material and not everyone has high wage potential. Some just want to survive this thing called life and have a little joy in the process. Mark

Vermont gets my kudos for having a higher min wage than the federal one. I was in law school when it first adopted a higher minimum wage, and argued with Vermonters that it was atrocious, created a "bubble effect" where VT's minimum wage would actually be funded by neighboring states, etc. etc. Well, I was wrong.

However, you are spot on about Burlington. So many people clamoring to live there have given it Massachussetts/Connecticut costs of living while the average wages in Burlington have remained nearly as low as the rest of Vermont. Burlington uses the same minimum wage as the rest of the state. Living in a metropolitan area like Chicago, I find this silly -- city wages are usually a buck or two higher for the "minimum wage" jobs, even at McDonald's.

Anyway, there was a great book and author reviewed/interviewed on Oprah the other day. She took this notion of "if you work hard you can do it" that MagiK and other right-wingers state and tried to apply it. She moved to a city, got 2 low wage jobs, and simply tried to make life work while chronicling it in her book. Wasn't long before she couldn't make rent, even working 70+ hours a week, and found herself living out of her car. From there, homelessness, the loss of jobs (due to not having a place to shower regularly, due to missing work to fight parking tickets, etc.) was a short step away, and then true abject poverty -- she became a bum. Then, she went on to try to chronicle how one would get from that position into a halfway house and back into productive society. It never did work. But, she did finally quit the lifestyle and returned home, where she got her book published. I thought it to be a very provacative issue and view on the issue.

Anyway, I guess this is a long-handed way of expressing condolences and wishing you luck.

[John D Harris]

Here Wolfy Wolfy
It's not the high cost of living it's the cost of living high, a lot of people don't recoznise(sp?) the differance between nessicary(sp?) and want. Shelter is a Nes., Shelter in a safe neighborhood is a want. Food is a Nes. eating out is a want.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Yes, MagiK and Cerek -- you are right. Shitty employment IS employment. And, good news just seems to keep rolling in, as we're expecting to see lots of shitty new jobs this month. Oh, to dream of flipping burgers in the day and working at the mall at night -- all because your college education ain't worth squat because we've lost or outsourced our good blue collar jobs to India. Im not certain...but Im pretty sure it is WHITE COLLAR jobs being outsourced to India. All that's really left are crappy jobs on one end and the white collar jobs like mine on the other. But, as long as you guys keep wanting to take it up the rear, those on my end of the spectrum will be happy to keep giving it to you. [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]

Jeez...if thats your take on it...it's sad you don't see that there are quite large numbers of people holding quite well paying jobs...I see the car dealers are selling quite a few decent cars in quantity, I see consumption going up....I see retail sails doing ok...hmmm who the hell is spending all that money iof it isn't the people in this country? Damn foreigners cominghere and buying all our stuff.....

Sorry guys but the same statistics you used to back your complaints in the year 2000 are now telling a different story and you are just trying to change the metric to continue the complaints.

TL for every Oprah guest you trot out I can bring in an immigrant who moved here with nothing but the clothes on their backs and are now doing quite well (happens to be a group that gets together monthly to help each other understand business and financial issues and it isn't a unique group.). Don't lay that tired old song...that it just can't be done. I see daily too many people who show that lie for what it is.

The fact is..the MAJORITY of people in this country are doing ok and are manageing to get by. If you want to see real economic hard times move to france and enjoy their 18% unemployment rate. (note to Donut: I just pulled that number from an article from the european press I read recently...I did not contact the French Employment office for actual official numbers)

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Yes, MagiK and Cerek -- you are right. Shitty employment IS employment. And, good news just seems to keep rolling in, as we're expecting to see lots of shitty new jobs this month. Oh, to dream of flipping burgers in the day and working at the mall at night -- all because your college education ain't worth squat because we've lost or outsourced our good blue collar jobs to India. All that's really left are crappy jobs on one end and the white collar jobs like mine on the other. But, as long as you guys keep wanting to take it up the rear, those on my end of the spectrum will be happy to keep giving it to you. [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]

You're right, Timber. Washing dishes and flipping burgers IS crappy work. I've done both (worked at McD's for 6yrs off and on through college and a little afterwards). But it IS also employment.

I didn't enjoy the jobs...and I certainly didn't enjoy being the most educated dishwasher in the restaurant, but that was the hand I was dealt, so I made the most of it.

From there, I got a job as a night auditor at a local motel and got my first job in Purchasing at the other hospital where I used to work. I was there for 7 years, but the pay was still crappy (I was making less than $7.00/hr after working there 7 years)...but again, it was the best I could do in the situation I was in. I have a chronic illness - one for which there is NO CURE! That means that I cannot purchase individual health insurance at any cost. As soon as the underwriters see the condition of "Chron's disease" on my application, it is rejected automatically. THAT means my job options are even more severely limited than most because I have to work for a company that offers group insurance that I can afford.

But through perserverence, patience, and prayer I finally managed to land a managers position at another small local hospital. The pay still isn't spectacular, but it ain't too bad either.

You mention the lady that moved to Chicago and tried to make it on minimum wage jobs. You're right, she couldn't do it - at least not in the city. So she finally had to make the choice to move back where she COULD "make it" on that type of job. I lived in Lakeland, Fl for a short while and worked in Tampa. My aspirations of becoming a filthy rich stockbrocker were dashed on the rocks beside Courtney Campbell Causeway, though, because I had the bad fortune of trying to become a rookie stockbroker just 1.5 yrs after the 1987 crash. With no support from the management - other than a phone and a list of contacts to call - my success never occurred. So I had to retreat back to Lakeland and work through Temp Agencies. I got a couple of jobs that payed the bills - barely. Then my circumstances changed and I found myself needing to find another apartment or place to rent....and I realized right away that I would NOT be able to "make it" on the money I was making at the time.

So I came back home. Jobs were scarce and times were tough, but I made it through and I've not regretted my decision to return to the small town I grew up in. I would certainly prefer to raise my boys here instead of Lakeland. Nothing against Lakeland, I'm just not a "big city boy" and never will be. I will live and die right where I am now and be happy for the experience.

As John D. Harris pointed out, it isn't the high cost of living that's the problem, it is the cost of living high. I don't own a cell phone, even though almost every teenager I see does. I don't own (nor do I foresee EVER owning) a brand new vehicle. All of my automobiles are used and probably always will be (unless I FINALLY pick the right 6 numbers in the weekly lottery ). The bottom line is that I realized quickly that I had to adjust my standard of living to actually coincide with the level of income I was making. THAT seems to be one of the biggest problems this current generation of workers have...they expect to be able to afford all of the luxuries that they think they "need" because everybody else has them. But the fact is, they don't "need" them at all...they are "wants", not "needs". When you truly focus on your "needs", you will find you actually can survive on a LOT less money than you originally thought.

[ 01-02-2004, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Cerek the Barbaric ]

[Garnet FalconDance]

Yep, yep. Good points by all.

Better paying jobs can be had in the city, any city. Budha was getting $16/hr roofing but had to drive over an hour to the shop and then sometimes to a different state to actually work. (And both states tax you in that situation. For several reasons, he quit that job (family-owner politics being foremost) and took one making $6/hr. BUT we have more money now than we did then. (Our wages have raised a little since). We both walk to work and run a small but growing business. No more vehicular wear and tear, insurance came down, etc. We live in a really small town (although we desperately want to move into the country on our own land and are saving up) and the house we rent, a 3 to 4 br story-and-a-half with a nice yard, only costs $200/month. Could we make a lot more money in or at least nearer a city (we're approx 65 mi from KCMO)? Most assuredly. But we would *have* to make the money to afford rent or a mortgage, higher utilities, etc.

Some people don't have much choice and some don't care to make the choice. That's fine. I know people who love living in an urban setting and paying what I consider ludicrous prices for precious little. Personally, I have better things to do with my meager dollars.

I've been one of those on the state dole---*while* I worked full time and had small children and went to college full time. It was a necessity at the time, not something I avidly sought. That's why the system is there...not to provide get-out-of-responsibility-free cards.

And Donut, if the man mows his neighbor's yard for an hour once a week and turns it in as legitimate employment, then he would not be counted as unemployed by that statement alone. Although one would hope he also mows many other yards for his paycheck.

[ 01-02-2004, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: Garnet FalconDance ]