Leave your almanacs and travel guides at home!

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by MagiK: Im not making this about you.

Your entire first post is a giant ad hominem with a question stuck at the end. Your second post has a few more ad hominens as well. I will document some of them for you here shortly

Originally posted by MagiK: PS. If you really feel that I was distorting your post please PM me with exact references and how you see it as a distortion. Also, if you feel I am being unfair in this thread..all you have to do is ask me not to respond to your threads or posts and I will comply.

You can certainly read your own words here that were posted publicly. You made these statements so you have the burden of proof for these statements, I will comment after each one:

Yeah, you don't want them to do anything to try and stop terrorists, you just want to bitch about them not doing anything

I can't tell if you are just using sarcasm here or making an ad hominem using reverse sarcasm.

By your own posts, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. There is absolutely no way to win for them.

Provide documentation for all these posts you mention where I have stated there is no way for them to win and that they damned if they do damned if they dont.
Also explain what that has to do with original article posted in this topic.

do you just like to complain about things or do you actually have some constructive ideas to be implemented.

This is quite clearly about me and not the news article that is the foundation for this topic. Another ad hominem.

Im not twisting anything about your post....you complained

Actually you are twisting something right there again. I wasn't complaining, I used sarcasm as opening comments on a news article. Here are my exact words:

"Oh man, I guess I will have to memorize the travel almanac for my next vacation. I sure won't be holding an Almanac in my hand the next time I "observe" a historic landmark or other place of notable interest."

You started with the ad hominem attacks I have documented after this. If you would have merely asked your question and/or merely commented on the news article I would have no issues with your posts in this thread. Discussing the issue of profiling or other investigative alternatives is fine as well as the topic that the news article is about. Recent expiriences have taught me that the lowest form of discourse is making personal snipes at a poster rather than discussing the topic at hand.

I expect personal snipes to end or to get the attention of moderators
The rules clearly state:

"While in a debate, or have a difference of opinion, please do not take it as an attack. We will close accounts of people that attack others, be it in a subtle way, or a deliberate loud way." and "Be Responsible: Do not post slanderous, libelous or any defamatory statements on the Ironworks Gaming Forum, we will not be held responsible for your posts, but just the same, we'd rather not go there! Posts that appear to be defamatory should have supporting references included."

and this from Memnoch's fair play thread at the top of the forum:

"We don't want spitefulness, we don't want pettiness. We don't want people starting fights, trying to get other people banned by flamebaiting, and getting personal with each other, or carrying on little petty niggling fights with each other, or getting offended at every little thing to try and get people they don't like banned. We're smarter than that, fellas."

Recently folks have gotten away with calling me anti-this and resentful-of- that both here and elsewhere simply becasue I held a different opinion or expressed that opinion in way they didn't like.

Perhaps your suggestions that I don't support the efforts of law enforcement to stop terrorists and that all I do is complain and not offer solutions is poorly timed and maybe ill-advised as well.

I dont mind having mindful discourse about the topics at hand. like the news article that was posted. But clearly making personal snipes and using ad hominem debate tactics and making defamatory implications violates the forums rules. Perhaps you haven't broken any of these rule and you have just skated close. Maybe I am just a bit over sensitive becasue of recent events?

I do know that if I get anymore "You are this, Your posts, You only do this" type posts I will ask for moderation and clarification of the forum rules with regards to making topics too personal.

Besides- making it personal takes the fun out of having discussions. Who can learn from divergent veiwpoints and new perspectives if the discussion consists of "you are this and you are that"?

Take Care,
Chewy

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Perhaps we should also profile caucasians using almanacs if we are going to profiling arabs using almanacs: http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...;f=27;t=000564 And we cannot forget Jose Padila, the hispanic terror suspect whose basic rights of judicial process were recently reinstated by the courts Better yet, lets just profile everybody as it seems that race doesn't neccessarily equate to terrorist activity. Everyone is a suspect just for being present and having an almanac. [sarcasm]If you own an almanac you must contact the department of homeland security and arrange for a full search of your person and property. Then we can start registering people who buy almanacs, travel guides and maps, making sure they have full background check, maybe even a 3 day waiting period for such dangerous items.[/sarcasm] I guess we will see if pestering tourists actually stops a terror attack. In the meantime, I do hope the police and FBI are focused on looking for far more determinable clues of suspicious behavior, like behaving nervously and/or carrying or leaving large out-of-place packages at landmarks for example. What was that quote by an American forefather about gaining security and losing freedom? The trend here is obvious.

In reference to the highlighted text here, I am clipping the paragraph that you highlighted in the original article....


The FBI noted that use of almanacs or maps may be innocent, "the product of legitimate recreational or commercial activities." But it warned that when combined with suspicious behavior -- such as apparent surveillance -- a person with an almanac "may point to possible terrorist planning."

If you will notice, the last line indicates that the FBI is NOT using the presence of almanacs as a sole indicator. They specifically state that the presence of an almanac "when combined with suspicious behavior"...may point to possible terrorist planning.

It is seems evident to me that the police won't be arbitrarily "pestering tourists". Instead, they will be looking for other indicators in addition to the presence of an almanac. This fact is ignored in the paranoid scenarios you and skywalker presented.

I realize you are using sarcasm to make your point, I simply think you are exaggerating the reaction officials will take regarding this issue.

As I said in my first post, I doubt I would have much to worry about if I decided to observe a national landmark and took my almanac with me. My lack of fear is NOT because I'm caucasian - it is because I would have my wife and kids with me. The A.Q. terrorists generally travelled either individually or in groups of 2-3 when visiting areas in preparation for the attack according to information uncovered about their preparations after the 9/11 attack). And, of course, they were all male.

If a group of 2-3 Middle Eastern men showed up at a national landmark that is a potential terrorist target, that would be one indicator. If these same men seemed interested in learning detailed information about the landmark, that would be a second indicator {most tourists just ask general questions in reference to whatever info is provided by the tour guide or recreation center...if someone started asking for much more in-depth info, that would indicate an unusual interest}. By themselves, these indicator could be perfectly innocent...but when combined, they would certainly warrant a little extra attention from the authorities charged with protecting the landmark, IMHO.

I'm sorry - I simply don't see the idea of including the presence of almanacs as one possible indicator of suspicious behavior as an infringement of my rights or freedom.

[Donut]

Why not just ban almanacs. We could have an "almanac burning party".

[skywalker]

So it is not feasable that a possible terrorist could visit sites with a woman and child in tow?

I'm not really paranoid, at least in regard to myself, maybe I am for innocent others. I guess it all depends on how far the investigation could be taken.

There are few targets of opportunity in Central Vermont, I think. So I doubt there's much for me and my family to fear locally.

And of course, it does not mean I am insensitive to the fears of others across the World.

Mark

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by skywalker: So it is not feasable that a possible terrorist could visit sites with a woman and child in tow? I'm not really paranoid, at least in regard to myself, maybe I am for innocent others. I guess it all depends on how far the investigation could be taken. There are few targets of opportunity in Central Vermont, I think. So I doubt there's much for me and my family to fear locally. And of course, it does not mean I am insensitive to the fears of others across the World. Mark

Certainly a possible terrorist could travel with a woman and child in tow, but that has not been the normal pattern for the A.Q. terrorists. They have always been individual (or very small groups) of men. Given thier disdainful attitude towards women in general, I don't know if they would change modus operandi or not - but it hasn't been their pattern in the past. And that is what the FBI is warning authorities to watch for. Again, it is just a common-sense approach to try to predict if and/or when an attack may occur. An extremely difficult job under the best of circumstances.

Certainly there is a potential for this measure to be abused, but I just don't believe most authorities are going to detain and interrogate tourists simply because they have an almanac in their car. I may end up being wrong about that and I will be the first to sadly acknowledge that if I am. But only time will tell if that is the case or not.

[Rokenn]

[Timber Loftis]

Well, after all the criticism logical pointers to police officers is getting, I think we just need to go back to the tried and true method of terrorist identification....

SKIN COLOR [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]

[Edit] Let me elaborate a bit. Racial profiling is wrong, mkay. But, so is making any presumption based on circumstances and facts. Single man travelling alone, PFLP keychain and wierdly annotated almanac in hand -- but, no factors to look at. Nope, nothing to see here. Wierd fuse sticking out of his shoe -- must be a fashion thing. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Any such investigation to develop probable cause, such as a visual "look" at someone, needs to take in a number of factors to make a decision. This IS a helpful hint for law enforcement -- it's one more factor to look for. No factor is determinative, but what some of you seem to be advocating is NO factors may be used at all.

Which relegates us to waiting until the next tragedy happens rather than acting to prevent it. The over-PC-ness of this is silly. And the Ben Franklin photoshop was not even funny, because it relies on a misinterpretation of the situation rather than on the reality -- which is a reasonable alert as to a relevant factor.

Um.... skywalker, now that the Old Man in the Mountain fell apart, I don't think there are ANY targets north of Mass.

[ 12-30-2003, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[pritchke]

Originally posted by Donut: Why not just ban almanacs. We could have an "almanac burning party".

I know, make people register their almanics.

$50/year for registration, and a $1000 fine if you are caught with an unregistered almanac.

Sometimes I feel like an insane leader.

[ 12-30-2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

As TL aptly pointed out....it makes absolutley no difference what the people in charge do..those here who criticize about almanacs will criticize no matter what action is taken...no matter what action is not taken. No win scenario for the guys who have to try to protect us....so that ebing the case...I think they should profile using every metric they think necessary....what have they got to loose? they are going to be criticized anyway.

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Ultimatley, I, in all my armchair general glory, (it's called thinking for myself! shocking!) see this as like just another in a long line of PR stunts designed to make it look like they are doing something. Kind of like the whole Iraq war, orange alert thing, the duct tape and plastic scare amongst others. Actually "Archair Generalship" would require you to put forth an alternate methodology wich you refuse to do...you are not "thinking for your self" in this instance...but basicly just complaining with no clear alternative to provide. Never mind that OBL is probably hiding in a cave in the wild tribal areas of Pakistan, virtually free from harrassment, planning the next real attack somewhere and free to be an idealogical leader for terrorists. It is more likely that he is in Iran. Bottom line is, if they know of a specific threat, they are going to act on it. If they don't know of a specific threat they have obviously have the time on their hands to come up with things like vague warnings about alamanacs. Lastest statisitics are that they get over 10,000 threats a month(world wide)....and wether they are "credible" or not will be judged by the media and critics after the fact....pretty nice to be able to work with hindsight. I live 20 minutes from Boston and have lived in Boston for the last 4 years, I still use my Frommer's Boston Almanac to find new places around town. I also have a Frommer's New England Alamanc for road tours of the area. Having an alamanac proves nothing, and should not logically be probable cause for even suspicion. If you wander around town consulting an almanac instead of one of many thousands of more detailed and easier to carry maps...you are in the minority and deserve to be singled out to be watched...as is anyone who does something unusual in public....thats the world we live in. I too shudder at the thought of sinister terrorist plots, but I must refuse to let that fear control my actions. To quote the state motto of my state-neighbor to the north- "Live free or die." I would rather die a free American than live under a blanket of paranoia and terrorism inspired fear. Caution and reasonable precautions are not "letting fear" rule you. You know that Bonfire is HOT, but are you going to let fear rule you and keep you from standing in the middle of it? or are you going to take reasonable action and avoid standing in the fire?