Second grader punished for talking about his gay mom

[Azimaith]

In my opinion the very fact we have role models on television who are on respectable stations using the word gay regularly excludes the punishment of the child for using it. If Dan Rather says, today, tenthousand gay rights activists marched for gay marriage, any 12 year old would think that if he says it, its a fine word.

[LordKathen]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: quote: Originally posted by LordKathen: Pathetic conservative control. When are these people going to get with it and realise that it is not the 40's or 50's anymore? This is rediculous.

"Pathetic conservative control"????

Funny, I didn't see anything in the article about the teacher or principals' political affiliation. Guess you must know something I don't. [img]graemlins/dontknowaboutyou.gif[/img]

I was very surprised and disappointed to see this kind of arbitrary blanket-blaming statement from you, Lord K. [img]graemlins/verysad.gif[/img] That's not the kind of comment I would expect from you. [/QUOTE]Well Cerek, I was not refering to their political ideals, but their conservative outlook on homosexuality. Or at least the referance to it. The article paints a picture of an innocent child talking comfortably about his mother to a friend, and was overly punished for it. How is that not conservative?

[Barry the Sprout]

He means conservative with a small "c" as opposed to a big "C" cerek. The tendency to avoid change as opposed to the political ideology. Granted thats what Conservatism the ideology started out as meaning. but its changed a lot since Burke's time, therefore the capital letter distinction is quite important these days.

[Thoran]

A small thing... but sadly this cannot be blamed on Political Correctness, I'm afraid it's a old fashioned case of intolerance. If this were PC in action it'd be a boy getting in trouble because he voiced his opinion that Homosexuality was wrong.

IMO either is just as bad, both are founded in intolerance of dissenting viewpoints.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by LordKathen: Well Cerek, I was not refering to their political ideals, but their conservative outlook on homosexuality. Or at least the referance to it. The article paints a picture of an innocent child talking comfortably about his mother to a friend, and was overly punished for it. How is that not conservative?

"How is that not conservative?" It is not conservative because you are using a broad-brush accusation over an isolated incident with specific individuals.

Your comment that it is a "conservative" view implies that ALL conservatives would view the situation similarly. That is not the case.

I am a pretty hard-core conservative and I'm also a Southern Baptist Born-Again Christian. That should give you a pretty clear picture of my opinion of homosexuality in generel...yet this hard-core Southern Baptist conservative DISAGREES with what the school did and AGREES with the A.C.L.U.

However, I will keep in mind that it is OK to use the "broad-brush" accusatory labels. The next time political correctness rears it's ugly head, I'm certain you won't mind when I arbitrarily blame it on the liberals. After all, we all know that Political Correctness is primarily a "liberal" point of view.

Do you see my point now?

[Barry the Sprout]

Cerek - I may be misreading Lord K but I really don't think he is talking about people who consider themselves "Conservatives", but instead is talking about the nature of some people to attempt to resist change. Thats a completely different thing but it is confusingly covered by the same word.

The school teachers in this instance might vote democract every time they get a chance for all I know, but they are still acting in a conservative fashion in that they have not recognised the fact that "gay" is no longer a dirty word. The difference between Conservative and conservative is bigger than you might think. Its not just a case of a misplaced Shift key...

[Timber Loftis]

I'm gonna side with Cerek here and say I think Lord K was mistaken to call it conservative -- big c or little c. To me over PC-ness is a liberal disease. In my mind, a liberal-minded, i.e. left-leaning, teacher would punish someone for using the word "gay" more readily that a right-leaning, conservative one would. Just my opinion.

Here's what we're all missing. It's hard to be a teacher. "Penis" is a perfectly fine word, as is "vagina." Both are on the news daily. We have billboards for "The Vagina Monologues" here. However, if I were a second-grade teacher and little Billy was talking about his "penis," I'd probably get him to stop. Perhaps the same is true for this teacher with "gay." "Gay" is a word that necessarily involves sex to a degree. It is a sexual preference distinction. Therefore, a teacher may punish a student for using it in the same way as "penis." These are second-graders, after all, and how much should they know at that point? Personally, I think the teacher simply MADE A MISTAKE. It happens -- they're human.

[Barry the Sprout]

Well, personally I disagree over the teacher's motives - I think they did it not because they were being overly protective liberals but instead because they haven't got used to the idea of discussing gays in public. Big difference I think.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: Cerek - I may be misreading Lord K but I really don't think he is talking about people who consider themselves "Conservatives", but instead is talking about the nature of some people to attempt to resist change. Thats a completely different thing but it is confusingly covered by the same word. The school teachers in this instance might vote democract every time they get a chance for all I know, but they are still acting in a conservative fashion in that they have not recognised the fact that "gay" is no longer a dirty word. The difference between Conservative and conservative is bigger than you might think. Its not just a case of a misplaced Shift key...

And I respectfully disagree. People with a "conservative" view tend to vote in a conservative manner....which means they are generally labeled as "conservatives". The Democratic party has embraced the Gay Rights movement wholeheartedly, so I find it difficult to believe the teacher and principal are members of that party. But that isn't the point.

The point I'm arguing against is arbitrarily labeling an action as "conservative" or "liberal", especially when it is being done in a criticising tone.

Lord Kathan is criticising the "conservative" view in general with his rant against the teacher, and continues doing so when I disagreed with his statement by asking me "How is that not conservative?"

As I mentioned earlier, there was another thread not long ago where Political Correctness was arbitrarily blamed on the left wing liberals in a criticising tone, and many of the members that consider themselves to fit in that category were quick to criticise the use of such a "broad brush" label being used in an accusatory manner. For reference sake, this is the thread in question - More PC stupidity from the Left

When I browsed back through the thread to review the specific comments, I found a very interesting coincidence that pertains directly to this thread - and the point that I am arguing against. It was summed up perfectly in the last post of the thread......

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: I don't think there's anything wrong with really being politically correct, but this misses the point of what political correctness actually is, as a lot of stuff seems to do these days. I don't think its wrong to attempt to remove inherent bias from a system, but thats not what this is doing. And if the left wing is pro mad political correctness then surely that makes the right anti political correctness. Which, if you take it to its logical extreme, means that the right is in favour of entrenched racist and sexist bias within institutions. You see where stupid assumptions can get you? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: Originally posted by Lord Kathan: [img]graemlins/awesomework.gif[/img] Well said Barry. (Hey, I got your name right this time!)

[/QUOTE]We have yourself extending the argument against political correctness out to it's extreme to make an insulting (and completely erroneous) remark about the right wing conservatives and then Lord Kathan comes in with a "thumbs up" endorsement of your statement.

So it appears that if broad accusations are made against the left, then those accusations should be addressed and corrected...but if they are made against the right, then we are to simply understand that there is a difference between the Big "C" and the little "c".

But maybe I am wrong...and maybe I'm the only one that believes there is more than a little bit of hypocrisy in that example.

[ 12-04-2003, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Cerek the Barbaric ]

[Barry the Sprout]

Cerek, lets have one more go at this shall we: I'm not talking about political ideologies, the way people vote, or the political parties they tend to agree with. I really can't make it any clearer than that.

the way I see it the line of reasoning goes like this. Out of a reluctance to accept change (which does not necessarily tie you to any political party in these hectic days we live in) the school teachers at this particular school still consider the word "gay" as inappropriate for polite conversation. Most people, the overwhelming majority I would imagine, are not reluctant to accept change to this degree and therefore condemn them for doing so. When a remark is made identifying these school teachers with the literal dictionary definition of their character trait (conservative) people who conform to the political ideology that confusingly bears the same name think they are referring to them and get angry. I'm just trying to sort things out here. It helps in some ways that I've spent my week reading about classical conservatism and therefore understand that todays brand of the ideology bears so little relation to the original word it can no longer be considered even remotely the same thing.

You say most people who hold conservative ideals are Conervatives? I disagree. The most dynamically active (in my opinion for the worse, but thats a different matter) ideology over the last 20 years has been Conservatism. It has absolutely no relation to the desire to stop change anymore. You cannot read the word conservative in my view and legitimately connect it to the political belief. As such I think Lord Kathen was being much more specific in his criticism of those teachers than you have realised.

As to the accusation that I don't mind slurs as long as they're against the right, I couldn't disagree more - but I understand that that has little mileage in persuading you as its not like I'd say different... Its a bit of a cheap shot in some ways as I have absolutely no way of defending against it other than referring to a board-life-times worth of not being prejudiced. And that doesn't help me much as I seriously doubt you've been monitoring my posts to see whether or not I make sweeping anti right-wing statements. [img]tongue.gif[/img]