Long Live Globalization

[johnny]

originally posted by Barry the Sprout If you think that the left is against globalisation then you'd be in for a shock if you ever actually listened to what the people on those protests were saying.

I'd like to hear that too sometime, unfortunately they hardly ever talk, since they're too busy demolishing the city where it all takes place.

[Barry the Sprout]

Ok, I don't know how it works in the Netherlands, but over here that kind of stuff is greatly exaggerrated in the media and usually only perpetrated by a small minority of protestors.

Look at it this way - if you were a reporter going to a demo and saw 990 people standing around with signs handing out leaflets and 10 people breaking windows who would you base your story on. The destructive idiots are just more newsworthy.

[Skunk]

Originally posted by Avatar: In my opinion THAT is not an issue! US Farmers stand at highier advantage BECAUSE of highier regulations. People with enough money will buy the foods with better reglated approval. It should be fair that these products should jointly trade: US Apple at $4 which is very safe Indian Apple at $1 which is known to be alright. Which would you buy? And more importantly, once someone gets ill from the Indian Apple... WHICH WOULD YOU BUY?? When we play the speculation game of chess, it's better to think a few moves ahead.

If it really worked that way, the WTO talks would not have failed as the developing countries would not have had anything to complain about.

In reality, third world agro-products cost more in the western stores - while simultaneously, western agro exports to third world countries are cheaper than home-grown produce, sending local third-world farmers out of business.

There are a variety of reasons for this, including ecomomy of scale (the average US farm is massive in comparison to its 3rd world competitor, usage of GM crops which do not need weed-killers, usage of weed-killers (for non-GM crops) and fertilisers to boost the success of crops, massive market over-supply deflating prices and, most importantly, comparitively *huge* government subsidies to farmers (esp. in the EU). You can get an overview of who stood to win/lose what here.

As Timber Loftus says: "To extend the example past the apple and use a few real-world examples:
1. On manufactured goods: the VW bug made in Mexico is made under less strict enviro standards yet no one asks "how much soil did you pollute or laborers were injured/underpaid when making this car" when they buy a car."
Western nations argue that such a lack of standards and controls effectively amounts to a state-subsidy to third world countries and, as such, is pulling industrial jobs and income away from the west.
Furthermore, most developing countries do not have an open bidding process for tenders - for example, one of four companies bidding to build a motorway wins the contract: but the details of that company's bid remain secret even after they have won the contract - leading the other company's to suspsect foul play.
And if that wasn't enough, many developing companies slap on huge import taxes on industrial goods - further weakening the competitiveness of western manufactured products.

Originally posted by Avatar: I would suggest having safety regulation labels on foods. EVEN if your Indian apple has an organic sticker on it, without a safety label, how far will it go?

I don't know how it works in the US, but in the EU all food imports are carefully monitored and tested for safety and if there is any doubt over the safety of food or any suspicion that food is 'contaminated' in some way, the *entire* shipment is sent back. (Which has led to huge rows with the US because some shipments of Grain labeled as GM free were sent back because there were low traces (ie 0.01%) of GM grain found within them). So it's highly unlikely that the western supermarkets will find themselves loaded with 3rd world food that is riddled with DDT.
I'm fairly sure that the US follows the same kind of strict food safety policy.

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: If you think that the left is against globalisation then you'd be in for a shock if you ever actually listened to what the people on those protests were saying.

Well, there is the Left and there is the Left. There is the informed and the uninformed coupled with the rational and irrational.

There are left wingers who believe that the rich should always look after the poor regardless of the circumstances, and there are 'left wingers' who believe that the rich should only look after those who are incapable of looking after themselves and assist the rest to make something of their lives.

I personally fall into that latter category, and as a result, fully support the WTO. Looking at it logically, in order for 3rd world countries to become wealthy, they need to move away from agro-based economies to industrial based ones - so the flood of cheap food into their countries will help to release labour from the field to the factory, and will lead to the consolidation of existing farms into larger ones - where the economies of scale can be achieved.

One also has to be realistic too. In a perfect world we would all give up our worldly possessions and there wouldn't be poverty because everyone would have the same riches. But in reality, rich people don't want to become poor, and those who are comfortably off don't want to struggle to survive. As a result, one has to take into account the demands of western nations into account.

A compromise could be reached with western countries - whereby financial penalties are imposed on western companies attempting to move shop to 3rd world countries - but where the import tariffs remain the same.

In my perfect world of the future, I'd like to see western countries economies as largely based on agriculture, technology and services - with the '3rd world' countries as the new industrial nations (with environmental regulations, decent pay etc.) It would not be an unrealistic evolution of the world economy.

Unfortunately, it seems to me that many 3rd world countries want to have their cake and eat it. They want the west to buy goods which were manufactured without attention to the environment or the health of the workers and to accept farm goods which were produced not only in an uneconomic way, but which are also of lower quality and potentially hazardous to health. The west is then supposed to get poorer while they get richer. Well, that's unrealistic because it goes against human nature.

[WillowIX]

]Originally posted by Avatar: In my opinion THAT is not an issue! US Farmers stand at highier advantage BECAUSE of highier regulations. *snip*

Not to mention all the subsidies that practically ruin every Indian farmer.

Anywho, I wholeheartedly agree with Timber. Wait, who said that? [img]graemlins/uhoh1.gif[/img]

[Barry the Sprout]

Originally posted by Skunk: Well, there is the Left and there is the Left. There is the informed and the uninformed coupled with the rational and irrational. There are left wingers who believe that the rich should always look after the poor regardless of the circumstances, and there are 'left wingers' who believe that the rich should only look after those who are incapable of looking after themselves and assist the rest to make something of their lives.

On your first point, whilst the lunacy of some of the left never fails to suprise me I think that for the most part the idea of the totally irrational nay-saying leftist is a colourful and amusing myth. Overall the left wing tends to be quite well educated and know what its talking about.

Also I'd just like to stress in relation to your second point that there are other positions than the ones you've mentioned above that left-wingers tend to take. My position personally is that the poor shouldn't rely on the rich to do anything for them. Its not about charity, its about revolution.

[Skunk]

Originally posted by Barry the Sprout: On your first point, whilst the lunacy of some of the left never fails to suprise me I think that for the most part the idea of the totally irrational nay-saying leftist is a colourful and amusing myth. Overall the left wing tends to be quite well educated and know what its talking about. Also I'd just like to stress in relation to your second point that there are other positions than the ones you've mentioned above that left-wingers tend to take. My position personally is that the poor shouldn't rely on the rich to do anything for them. Its not about charity, its about revolution.

Well I used to be a labour party member and I used to live in the North of England and I guarantee you that the irrational nay-saying left was alive and well the last time I was there.

Education does not neccessarily imply rationality - there are still a large number of labour voters who believe that the rich should pay ever higher taxes to fund social programs and it has yet to cross their minds that the rich have their limit. It was almost impossible to explain to them that if you tax the rich hard enough, they will simply leave the country, taking their money with them.

Here in the Netherlands, many rich people did just that: they fled just over the border into Belgium where they officially live - but continue to work in the Netherlands!

As you say, the left covers a very broad spectrum of views - and it is quite funny but again, right here in the Netherlands I vote for one of the right wing parties because the official left is far too left for my liking: they happen to be 'mythical nay-saying leftists'...

And, like you, I believe in the concept of 'hand-ups not handouts' - a revolutionary concept for the left in the Netherlands.