They're at it again...

[antryg]

Originally posted by pritchke: quote: Originally posted by antryg: If it is just a small hardcore group, then why don't the vast majority of peace loving Palistinians give them up?

You see that on TV because peace loving Palistinians don't make headlines or ratings. Can you give up every criminal in Texas? It is problay as easy for them as for you to hand over every criminal in Texas.Do you even know know the location of a single criminal wanted by the law in your home state? Not quite so simple as it sounds. [/QUOTE]Forgive me for not being clear. I was referring to interviews where the family members of a suicide bomber speak of their knowledge of what the person was planning and praising their faith. My point was that even those who say they want peace also want to allow those they know to continue in acts of violence.

[Indemaijinj]

I would be less sceptical in the Israeli resentment towards a Palestinian state if I knew that the palestinians could coexist peacefully within the state of Israel, but I doubt that will ever be a reality. Firstly the recent happenings have basically wiped out any trust between the two peoples. Besides it would mean for the Israelians that they would have to give up Israel's image as a jewish state. Since a large part of it's population would suddenly be neither jewish (but arab) nor jewish (but muslim).

The problem is what to do with all these palestinians then. They cannot be exiled since none of the neighbouring countries are willing or able to support them. Neither is the final solution of genocide viable because it would face enormous resentment internally (from the Israeli who sees themselves as proud humanists) and would propably provoke the ire of the entire western world, especially Europe who for some reason hates everything related to genocide (the Third Reich, former Yugoslavia, nudge nudge, say no more).

Basically the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a crisis that CANNOT be solved in anyway, let all followers of bleak hopelessness and perpetual pain rejoice.

[Lord Lothar]

Originally posted by Animal: Getting involved in a situation that you know nothing about is always a bad idea. As TL pointed at, the conflict has been raging for thousands of years, and the origin is probably long forgotten. As noble as it may be to want to bring peace to the region, nobody can do that but themselves. Sticking our oar in just makes things worse, so leave it be. Let them figure it out for themselves.

I agree completely with you. No matter how hard the US or any other good willed country attempts to get the countries to cooperate, in the end only those 2 can really do anything to end the violence.

[Grojlach]

*sigh*
How either side could claim to be the "mature one" in this matter is beyond me.

Jerusalem Segregation Wall Hits 1000s Palestinians

Thousands of Palestinians Hit by Jerusalem Segregation Wall.
IOF Confiscate More West Bank Land, Annex Parts of 5 Towns.
The Israeli government has issued land confiscation orders for a new segrgation wall, which confiscate and annex more Palestinian land to the unilaterally-declared capital of the Jewish state and will put some 50,000 Palestinians from the West Bank on the Israeli side of the barrier, thus leaving hundreds of thousands on both sides of the Wall cut off from relatives, schools and jobs on the other side.
Most of the confiscated land lay inside the West Bank, Ha’aretz reported Tuesday.
The route of the wall, which Israeli sources described as the “Jerusalem envelope,” would pass throuh several Palestinian towns and villages annexing parts of Bethlehem, Sur Baher, Abu Dis, Kufur Akeb and Al-Ram.
All theses comunities will be cut off from the other parts of the West Bank.
After the anouncement of the new wall plan, Mayor of Bethlehem Hanna Nasser confirmed that the Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF) issued orders to confiscate Palestinian land around the Bilal Rabah Mosque for “military purposes.”
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is facing increasing international pressure not to undermine future peace talks with the Palestinians by insisting on building the Apartheid Segregation wall.
Even Israel’s closest ally, Washington, has voiced concern that the Wall between Israel and the West Bank could complicate negotiations on the borders of a future Palestinian state, the goal of a US-sponsored peace “roadmap.”
The White House is reportedly piling pressure on Israel to revise the map of the next section of the wall, which is seen by Palestinians as an attempt to pre-determine the borders of their future state.
Similar position was highlighted following a recent visit of high-ranking Christian delegation to the occupied Palestinian territory.
“The WCC and our member churches are extremely concerned about the creation of the so-called security wall,” said the director of the World Council of Churches’ Commission of the Churches on International Affairs (WCC/CCIA) Peter Weiderud.
Speaking at a press briefing at the end of 12-14 August World Council of Churches' (WCC) staff visit to Jerusalem, Weiderud was referring to the separation wall presently under construction in the West Bank.
The wall is creating “a new political border” that violates international law, he pointed out.
“While the government of Israel is negotiating a 'land for peace' formula, the facts on the ground show a different picture.” The wall “will turn any Palestinian affected entities into Bantustans - to which Israel can shut its door any time. While barriers and walls are tumbling down or becoming obsolete all over the world, we are experiencing the opposite here.”
“With the security walls, total closures and checkpoints, Palestinian towns have become large prisons festering with frustration,” Weiderud stressed.
During their three-day visit, WCC staff met with the heads of churches and Christian communities of Jerusalem, President Yasser Arafat, and Ambassador Gadi Golan, head of the religious affairs bureau at the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

IOF Detain More Palestinians, Peace Activists
On the ground, IOF detained two international activists because they were trying to prevent Israeli bulldozers from demolishing a Palestinian house in the northern West Bank.
In the pre-dawn hours of Sunday morning, eight Israeli occupation army vehicles raided the Balata refugee camp outside the city of Nablus in an attempt to demolish a Palestinian house.
However, the two activists chained themselves to the upper floors of the house in an attempt to prevent its demolition.
IOF forced the activists out and detained them, sources close to the peace activists said.
Separately, IOF detained five Palestinians from occupied and annexed east Jerusalem on suspicion of trying to re-establish Palestinian security forces in the city, Israeli police said.
The men, who were arrested during an overnight raid in Silwan village southeast of the Old City, were thought to have spent the past few weeks undergoing military training in the West Bank city of Jericho, the Israeli police alleged.
Police suspect the men underwent training with the aim of reestablishing an arm of the Palestinian preventative security forces in Jerusalem, it added.
Elsewhere in the occupied territory, IOF invaded Lemrah neighborhood in the northern West Bank city of Jenin overnight, witnesses said.
IOF also detained two Palestinians in Hebron overnight. One of the detainees was wounded in the raid.
Palestinian security sources further confirmed that an IOF undercover unit kidnapped two Palestinians in the southern West Bank village of Rashida, west of Hebron.
Israel’s constant raids and detentions are undermining peace efforts and threatening to flare violence once again after a short period of calm following Palestinian factions announcement of a temporary cease fire on June 29th, Palestinians say.

Source: Scoop

[The Hierophant]

So long as I keep this pathetic eye-for-an-eye hatred out of my homeland the extremists of both Palestine and Israel can get all the martyrdom and victory they could possibly desire. Ridiculous, just f**king ridiculous.

[WillowIX]

Originally posted by antryg: Forgive me for not being clear. I was referring to interviews where the family members of a suicide bomber speak of their knowledge of what the person was planning and praising their faith. My point was that even those who say they want peace also want to allow those they know to continue in acts of violence.

And added to that the mothers' pride of raising their children to become martyrs. I mean raising your child to become a suicide bomber? [img]graemlins/idontagreeatall.gif[/img]

And I'm not sure that the majority wants peace. After all the numbers participating in the funeral marches screaming for Israeli blood looks endless on teh TV screen. The younger generations perhaps but I doubt that the older will ever forgive or forget. Until their removed from power (on both sides) there will probably never be any tranquility in that region.

[Sir Taliesin]

I heard this morning that the Homicide Bomber that did this was a 29 Year old School Teacher with a family and two children. He was a couple of months shy of his master degree. Lovely lesson to be teaching all of his students. His wife came out soon after the bombing and talked about how proud she was that he was now a martyr. Must have been a bastard to live with, if she's glad he's gone (that last, was a bit of irony). I guess she realized that 72 virgins could satisfy him a lot more than she could. (another bit of irony)

[ 08-20-2003, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Sir Taliesin ]

[Timber Loftis]

NY TIMES: 8/20/03
_______________

Palestinian Leader Orders the Arrest of Islamic Militants
By REUTERS

Filed at 12:14 p.m. ET

RAMALLAH, West Bank (Reuters) - The Palestinian prime minister ordered security services Wednesday to arrest militants behind a Jerusalem suicide bombing that killed 18 people and shattered a truce crucial to a U.S.-led peace plan.

Mahmoud Abbas, who also cut off contact with Islamic militant leaders, acted after Israel shelved its planned handover of occupied cities to Palestinian control, froze high-level talks and reimposed a clampdown on the West Bank.

With the troubled ``road map'' peace plan in jeopardy after Tuesday's bus bombing, Abbas also planned to convene his Cabinet to decide on other security measures against Islamic militants which his government has hitherto hesitated to take.

``There are clear instructions (given) to security forces to follow these people, find them, put them under arrest. We have to use our authority to contain this tough situation and to stop the negative developments,'' Information Minister Nabil Amr told reporters in Ramallah, West Bank seat of Palestinian government.

Israeli troops may have beaten Palestinian police to the punch, arresting 17 suspects in a raid into Hebron, the bomber's hometown, Israel radio said. The volatile West Bank city is largely under Israeli army occupation with Palestinian police sidelined.

Tuesday night, a 29-year-old Muslim cleric disguised as an ultra-Orthodox Jew blew himself up on a bus full of Jewish families returning from prayers at a Jerusalem shrine. Five children, including a baby girl, were among the 18 dead.

Hamas said it was avenging continued Israeli raids that have killed militants despite the seven-week-old cease-fire.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon convened top security aides to discuss the way ahead after the attack, a severe setback for a peace plan aimed at defusing a militant revolt and at granting Palestinians statehood in the West Bank and Gaza.

DIPLOMATIC PROCESS FROZEN

Israeli officials suggested any military response would be tempered by a desire to avoid further damage to the peace plan.

But Sharon's office said he told President Bush in a telephone call that ``as long as the Palestinians don't act in a serious manner to wipe out terror, there can be no progress in diplomatic routes.''

The attack was a stinging embarrassment to Abbas' moderate government and its stated effort to stanch violence to qualify for a state, for it came as he was talking with militant faction chiefs in Gaza about firming up the flimsy truce.

It was unclear how Abbas would crack down on militants, as Palestinian security forces in the West Bank have been greatly weakened by Israeli offensives. Recent militant attacks have emanated from cities under Israel's military control.

Abbas has also struggled to wrest effective power over the security organs from President Yasser Arafat, who has been accused by Israel and the United States of fomenting bloodshed -- a charge he denies -- and banished from U.S.-led peacemaking.

Abbas condemned the bus blast, saying it ``does not serve the interests of the Palestinian people.'' He called off a scheduled visit to Norway next week, Norwegian officials said.

He has denounced previous bombings in similar terms. But to date he has shied away from breaking up the popular militant groups, citing a fear of civil war.

Israel says Abbas must start neutralizing militants before Israeli forces can ease military operations.

The circular arguments reflect the profound mistrust that has bogged down the road map since its June 4 launch.

Hamas and Islamic Jihad insisted they stood by the cease-fire, as they said after two bombings a week ago. But they said further Israeli raids were provoking reprisals

[*\Conan/*]

Here is a short definition of beliefs of the Major Palestinian Militant Groups


On June 29, the three principal Palestinian militant groups declared a moratorium on killing Israelis anywhere, including soldiers and Jewish settlers in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.




Hamas

Hamas derives its name from the Arabic acronym for Islamic Resistance Movement, although the word also means "zeal." It is the largest of three militant Palestinian groups, all of which are on the State Department's list of terrorist organizations.

Hamas was founded in 1988 in the early days of the first intifada, or uprising. That year it published a charter voicing its opposition to the Palestinian Liberation Organization's acceptance of the state of Israel. The group has articulated different goals at different times, sometimes calling for an end to the Israeli occupation, and at others for destruction of the Jewish state.

Hamas has conducted many of the attacks against Israeli targets, both military and civilian. Among these was the June 2001 suicide bombing outside a Tel Aviv nightclub, killing 21 people. The organization also provides social services in Palestinian communities.

Islamic Jihad

The Palestinian Islamic Jihad has its roots in the Muslim Brotherhood. It was founded not long after the 1979 Iranian revolution, from which it drew inspiration. The group is secretive and organizes itself along paramilitary lines. The group believes that peace with Israel is not possible and its leaders have said the Jewish state is an usurpation of lands that they believe rightfully belong to Palestinians. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the November 2002 attack in Hebron that killed a dozen Israeli soldiers and security officials as they walked near a Jewish settlement, as well as numerous suicide bombings.

Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades

Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades is a violent offshoot of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement, although Fatah has publicly disavowed al-Aqsa's actions. The group, which arose during the current intifada, takes its name from the principal mosque in Jerusalem.

Among its goals are the eviction of Israeli troops from the West Bank and Gaza Strip and the establishment of a Palestinian state there. Its original actions were attacks on Israeli soldiers in the occupied territories, but later it carried out suicide attacks on Israeli civilians.

[ 08-20-2003, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: *\Conan/* ]

I think that I have to go along with a modified version of what TL first proposed...ie let Israel erase all traces of Palistinians/Palestine from the map. But first....set a deadline. Set a date and make it known to the palestinian people plain and clear..either get out there and crush these extremists (with or without israels help) or we will have to just go into unrestricted war mode and settle things once and for all. Sure there would be pockets of resistance for some time but eventually they would be starved out and Israel would be able to better watch its new borders to control any influx of arms or supplies to the remaining few palistinian nut jobs.

Of course this will only work if you just want to settle things once and for all.