Berlusconi's first day as EU President

[WillowIX]

Originally posted by khazadman: The German should be compared to a nazi. He was doing what so many leftists seem to excell at, and that is believeing that if you are on the right you are some kind of monster. Just look at Johnny. Since Berlusconi is on the right, according to him, he must be a fascist. I havn't seen the guy marching around in a black uniform leading a bunch of goons around to martial music. And when you get down to it, the Italian fascists were a joke.

Ehh you do know that nazis were extreme right-wingers right? Although their party in the beginning held some socialistic viewpoints it was probably the most anti-communistic party ever. Fascism was to the left of national socialism. I would love to see what sources of information names the German politician a nazi.

Originally posted by WillowIX: Ehh you do know that nazis were extreme right-wingers right? Although their party in the beginning held some socialistic viewpoints it was probably the most anti-communistic party ever. Fascism was to the left of national socialism. I would love to see what sources of information names the German politician a nazi.

Willow, as has been pointed out so very many times to me by our knowledgeable members from accross the pond...Over there Left and Right have whole different meanings than they do on this side of the pond.

[johnny]

Originally posted by khazadman: The German should be compared to a nazi. He was doing what so many leftists seem to excell at, and that is believeing that if you are on the right you are some kind of monster. Just look at Johnny. Since Berlusconi is on the right, according to him, he must be a fascist. I havn't seen the guy marching around in a black uniform leading a bunch of goons around to martial music. And when you get down to it, the Italian fascists were a joke.

You have a weird view of how a fascist looks dude. I based my words upon what i've read about his ideas on foreigners in Italy and what their position in their society is. that's why i came to the conclusion that Berlusconi is not just a rightwinged politician, but a little more than that.

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by Ar-Cunin: It isn't for nothing that his official spokesman has been renamed 'the misspokesman from the office of retractions' - all he's doing is trying to smooth over the rows that break out every time Berlusconi open his mouth.

True - Berlusconi is also the person who blurted out nonsense like

"I'm sorry for having said Communists eat babies. But if you want, I can organize a conference in which I will prove Communists have really eaten babies."

or, during EU talks whether the European Food Safety Agency should be placed in Parma, Italy or Helsinki, Finland:

"Parma is synonymous with good cuisine. The Finns don't even know what prosciutto is. I cannot accept this."

This would have been funny if his near invincible position of power in the Italy wasn't so painfully disturbing and frightening at the same time - not only does he own a large part of the media who are *supposed* to report neutrally about him and his decisions, there's also a law now in Italy which passed recently, and litterally placed him "above the law" (!), just to keep him from being criminally persecuted.

[ 07-03-2003, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[WOLFGIR]

Berlusconi is a fool.
A dangerous fool, the only good he will do is hopefully to unite more people actively into fighting that sort of stupidity from future politicians.

He is a poor excuse himself having people in his government who wanted their fleet to open fire upon refugee boats, and well. He should of anyone check his own sympatis before calling a german a Nazi, he should remember what the Italians finally did to the former Facists.

Khazadman. Before calling anyone a lefty, perhaps you should use your google a bit more creatively and check out why so many people think that Berlusconi is pretty close to a Facist. And as Johnny mentioned, check out the politics too while you are at it.

[Faceman]

Originally posted by khazadman: The German should be compared to a nazi. He was doing what so many leftists seem to excell at, and that is believeing that if you are on the right you are some kind of monster. Just look at Johnny. Since Berlusconi is on the right, according to him, he must be a fascist. I havn't seen the guy marching around in a black uniform leading a bunch of goons around to martial music. And when you get down to it, the Italian fascists were a joke.

So let me get this straight. If a leftist critizises a right-wing politician he should be called nazi (although he is none) because this is what he's always calling right-wingers and therefore deserves it.

That makes NO sense at all.

1.) "Nazi" is a very serious and offensive accusation to people from Europe (we had a whole "Fascism" thread about that two months ago)
2.) It makes no sense to call a Socialist or even a Communist "Nazi" for they aren't.
3.) Berlusconi himself is very much involved with the Italian neo-fascists

4.) The Italian fascists were NOT a joke. It's and was common practice in countries like Italy, Romania, Austria and even the GDR to act as if their citizens had never commited any war crimes in WWII because only the Germans were really nazis. Historical facts tell different stories. About Austrian villagers literally hunting down fugitives like rabbits. About Italian militias killing priests, ...

Berlusconi made that remark because he cannot defend his position on sensible grounds as he knows that what he does is unlawful and immoral. So he suggested the German being a Nazi persecuting him because HE is evil not Berlusconi.

[B_part]

Originally posted by WOLFGIR: Berlusconi is a fool. A dangerous fool, the only good he will do is hopefully to unite more people actively into fighting that sort of stupidity from future politicians.

He's a fool. Yes. But he's not dangerous: he talks big, acts big, but cannot really do anything: the Italian prime minister has really no power compared to his fellow premiers in other countries - he's just one vote in the government, and cannot do anything without the backup of the other members. Also the parliament has a greater power than in other countries, and that acts as control. Luckily.

[Grojlach]

Originally posted by B_part: He's a fool. Yes. But he's not dangerous: he talks big, acts big, but cannot really do anything: the Italian prime minister has really no power compared to his fellow premiers in other countries - he's just one vote in the government, and cannot do anything without the backup of the other members. Also the parliament has a greater power than in other countries, and that acts as control. Luckily.

But if the Parliament is in control, how did the bit quoted below happen at all, then? As I consider it to be quite a disturbing development, to be honest.

Two weeks ago, Mr. Berlusconi's political allies in the Italian Parliament passed a law that exempts the top five serving government officials, including the prime minister, from criminal prosecution. The adoption of the law put a stop to the trial of Mr. Berlusconi, already under way in Milan, though the court holding the trial has challenged the constitutionality of the legislation.

[ 07-04-2003, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

[Grojlach]

And while we're on the subject...

Berlusconi denies apologising for Nazi jibe

Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has insisted he has not apologised for comparing a German politician to a Nazi guard, saying only that he regretted his words had been misunderstood.
He said the tone of his remark was "in perfect harmony" with the heckling by Martin Schulz, a German member of the European Parliament.
The Italian leader triggered uproar in the parliament on Wednesday, when he suggested Mr Schulz would be perfectly cast as a Nazi concentration camp guard in a forthcoming film.
German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder has said he considered the matter "closed" after Mr Berlusconi told him he regretted the incident.
But the speaker of the European Parliament, Pat Cox, said Mr Berlusconi should apologise to parliamentary members as the incident "happened on the floor of the European Parliament, not in Berlin".
"There is a need for clarification by Berlusconi with the European Parliament in order to bring final closure to this matter," Mr Cox's spokesman told Reuters news agency.
Mr Berlusconi indicated that he would not apologise, telling reporters: "As far as the European Parliament is concerned, the situation is the same."
He said he had telephoned Mr Schroeder to express his regret that his comments were "interpreted badly".
"I did not offer apologies," he said. "I expressed regret that what I said in jest and irony was misunderstood."

'Back to business'
Mr Berlusconi repeated his assertion that he had found Mr Schulz's criticism of his business and political conduct insulting and his response was made as a "counter-weight".
He had rounded on Mr Schulz when the MEP referred to an alleged conflict of interest between the political role of Italy's richest man and his extensive media empire.
"I know there is a man producing a film on the Nazi concentration camps," Mr Berlusconi exclaimed. "I shall put you forward for the role of Kapo (guard chosen from among the prisoners) - you would be perfect."
Mr Berlusconi was appearing at a news conference with EU Commission President Romano Prodi - a fellow Italian and his arch-rival - following their first meeting setting out the goals for Italy's six-month presidency.
Mr Berlusconi's outburst has marred the start of Italy's six-month presidency and raised concern over his fitness to lead Europe through a period of enlargement and reform.
The BBC's Rome correspondent, David Willey, says Mr Berlusconi's gaffe continues to reverberate on the domestic Italian political scene.
The state broadcaster, RAI, has been accused by the left-wing opposition of toning down the coverage of Mr Berlusconi's blunder.

Source: BBC

[B_part]

Originally posted by johnny: Yeah, but the one who said it, is as close as it gets to neo fascisme

Originally posted by Faceman 4.) The Italian fascists were NOT a joke. It's and was common practice in countries like Italy, Romania, Austria and even the GDR to act as if their citizens had never commited any war crimes in WWII because only the Germans were really nazis. Historical facts tell different stories. About Austrian villagers literally hunting down fugitives like rabbits. About Italian militias killing priests, ...

The problem is, "fascism" is a misused word. You see? same thread page, two different meanings: BErlusconi has never killed a priest, and never will (a communist, maybe, never a priest ). So I guess johnny meant something different from Faceman.
Also fascism and nazism are not the same thing: both of them share a totalitarian view, but they differ in some major aspects and they should be considered separately.

Berlusconi cannot be considered a neo fascist for some simple reasons:

fascism has always theorized nationalization of the strategic industries and massive intervention of the state in the economy, while Berlusconi has neo liberal economic theories.
fascism tended to concentrate political power in national institutions, Berlusconi was elected promising devolution of at least part of that power to the regions (Tuscany, Sicily, etc.)
fascism exalted militarism, Berlusconi doesn't.

Berlusconi is conservative, right-wing, populist, and perhaps many other things (e.g. a fool), but calling him fascist is historically wrong. For the reasons stated above, Chirac or Bush are more fascist than Berlusconi.

Btw:
Fascists never killed priests because the Catholic church has always looked if not favourably, at least neutrally towards fascism. There is no reason why any fascist should have killed a priest, unless it happened in the dark days of german invasion in late WWII, when pretty many crimes were committed on either side, as usually happens in civil wars.

[ 07-04-2003, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: B_part ]