Federal Court orders State Supreme Court to Remove Ten Commandments

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Rokenn: A question to the Christians out there. How comfortable would you feel walking into a court room where the judge had a copy of the Koran displayed and a large plaque with Islamic quotes? Or Pagan/Wicca symbols on display?

Hear, Hear! This does say it all.

I'm a Pagan from Alabama originally and know just how radical and intolerant the religious right can get down there. They would probably spit brimstone and ash and all the Lord's wrath if the Koran and a Witch's book of shadows were on display at the public courthouse. Leave religion at home or at church or on the bumper of your car, not on or in goverment buildings.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Nowhere. But, the freedom from a governmental establishment of religion (1st Amendment) requires you look to see if people can be "offended" as part of your factual inquiry as to wherether an act is really "establishing" religion or "prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Dude, you totally lost me. I posted the exact words of the first ammendment it doesnt say anything about taking into consideration wether some crackpot is going to be offended. Establishing A religion has nothing to do with offending...it is an action all unto itself. Someone being offended by a person, place or thing is not "establishing" anything...except perhaps said persons ignorance or said persons cranial penile content.

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: quote: Originally posted by Rokenn: A question to the Christians out there. How comfortable would you feel walking into a court room where the judge had a copy of the Koran displayed and a large plaque with Islamic quotes? Or Pagan/Wicca symbols on display?

I think that says it nicely. [/QUOTE]
If you ask me that very question my very truthful answer is "I could give a sh*t" All Im interested when Im in a court is wether I get a fair hearing and that my case gets done in a timely manner. I don't give a flying fluff about the decorations....seriously.

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Nowhere. But, the freedom from a governmental establishment of religion (1st Amendment) requires you look to see if people can be "offended" as part of your factual inquiry as to wherether an act is really "establishing" religion or "prohibiting the free exercise thereof." To be sure, if this were private property it would be a non-issue. But, if government buildings can have greek gods decorating them, or quotes by other thinkers adorning them, why not the Bible? Just so long as it isn't elevated above the others. Couldn't you put up a plaque quoting Ghandi??

yup...guess it's time for a group of us to go file suit against all the federal or state government buildings with 'art' in the form of any pantheon's deities or mythological creatures that might offend us because it's forcing someone's religion down our throats.... I mean if we have to SEE something religious we might be forced to go and become one of their flock, right? Good freakin Grief!
Reminds me of a local city library that was forced to take down it's Christmas tree and minorah because the wiccans and atheists filed suit against the library. Of course it was ok to keep up the posters about Mulsim traditions (Ramadan etc)and Kwanza decorations..... [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img] go figure....

Btw, pritchke, very nice post, I agree with you!

[ 07-02-2003, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Nowhere. But, the freedom from a governmental establishment of religion (1st Amendment) requires you look to see if people can be "offended" as part of your factual inquiry as to wherether an act is really "establishing" religion or "prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Dude, you totally lost me. I posted the exact words of the first ammendment it doesnt say anything about taking into consideration wether some crackpot is going to be offended. Establishing A religion has nothing to do with offending...it is an action all unto itself. Someone being offended by a person, place or thing is not "establishing" anything...except perhaps said persons ignorance or said persons cranial penile content.
[/QUOTE]My point is that offending someone is *evidence.* If you post a Jesus quote on a public building among other philophical quotes, and no one is offended, there is less likelihood that the act is one of establishing a religion. I just don't see how you'd measure the "establishment" of religion without looking to people's reactions. Building marble statutes of Greek Gods all over the country could very well be argued to be an establishment of religion. But, it's been done and no one cries out that our government is trying to endorse Greek Mythology as a national religion -- largely because no one is offended and we all realize the government is using the "art" and "philosophy" of Greek Mythology, without endorsing polytheism.

People and their quotes are engraved on marble buildings everywhere. But, if you were to nit-pick, you'd find that most thinkers had a religious stance, and that the stance came through in their writing. Aristotle's Ethics can't be discussed without getting into his view of heaven. But, posting an Aristotle quote isn't seen as establishing a religion.

Why, then, can't religious figures, art, and ideas from the Christian religion be displayed without it being an "establishment." Is it simply because there are a lot of Christians in the nation?

edit:
I second Cloudy's post. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Actually, had that case followed Supreme Court law, it would have held that Christian Christmas displays are okay so long as they are not alone. In other words, if you want to display the Nativity, you need to put Santa and Rudolph or some Kwanzaa icons in the scene as well. Apparently, the SUpreme Court thinks christian icons are okay so long as they are diluted.

I guess I'm saying had the city had appealed in the case you mention, Cloudy, I think the offended heathens would have lost.

[ 07-02-2003, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Cloudbringer]

Actually, TL, I think it's because Christians are the 'whipping post' of the moment.
I've seen where it's ok to teach kids about Islam, budhism, wicca or paganism or any number of 'diversity' courses in schools now, but if you MENTION Christianity (even historically),in many places you end up with parents screaming about religion in government..I don't begin to pretend to understand it, myself.

I'd have to guess it's a trend- things go in cycles most of the time.
In the meantime...stop trying to make me into a follower of Greek religions...I saw that statue on the green.... [img]graemlins/whipitgood.gif[/img]

[ 07-02-2003, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

TL to "Establish" a religion, you build a church and tell people that they have to go to this and only this church. Putting up statues is NOT establishing anything...it is either Landscaping or decorating and does not cvome anywhere near establishing an official religion. PLUS you avoided the whole "CONGRESS" issue. It was NOT Congress that put up this particular piece of granite.

[Timber Loftis]

MagiK, the "congress shall make no law" part gets hooked in through two steps. (1)SPENDING -- it was a governmental appropriation that bought the thing, and is therefore a legislative act. (2) 14th Amendment -- makes it clear that any constitutional limit applicable to the federal government will also apply to State governments.

I think the law is clear that, via statues, policies, and other sorts of ways to innundate folks, the government could "establish" religion or "limit the free exercise thereof" without going so far as to found and build a Church of America.

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by Cloudbringer: Actually, TL, I think it's because Christians are the 'whipping post' of the moment. I've seen where it's ok to teach kids about Islam, budhism, wicca or paganism or any number of 'diversity' courses in schools now, but if you MENTION Christianity (even historically),in many places you end up with parents screaming about religion in government..I don't begin to pretend to understand it, myself. I'd have to guess it's a trend- things go in cycles most of the time. In the meantime...stop trying to make me into a follower of Greek religions...I saw that statue on the green.... [img]graemlins/whipitgood.gif[/img]

Spare me the tales of persecuted Christians, they are the dominant religious group in the US. They Christian right is constantly trying to push it's moral views on the rest of us via any means available from high pressure lobbying to running stealth canidates for local school boards. They are the ones who are constantly pushing for the teaching of creationism in public schools. For the outlawing of a woman's right to choose. Fighting tooth and nail against any kind of legal rights for same-sex couples.

In current society it is almost a requirement that you state your belief in God to be elected to any office.

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Rokenn: In current society it is almost a requirement that you state your belief in God to be elected to any office.

I don't buy that. If it were so, then all you mentioned would come to pass in this country, now wouldn't it. You make it sound like ALL christians want to throw everyone else to the lions. Not True my friend. Most Christians are quite tolerate people.