For those against monthly payments in MMORPGs...

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Luvian: No, it's not like that for vanity items only. I know that every time I go to a shop and see a product sold for less that is commonly accepted, I'm expecting it to be of lesser quality and craftsmanship. I'm not the only one, percieved value has it's effect on every product. I know that Asheron's Call didn't get any more subscribers because I played every day, and the number of people loged on every day didn't raise. This show that they didn't get enough new players to make a population increase. No company want to take a risk. Also, those games take years to make. By the time they come out, they are outdated already. As far as I remember, Horizons was in development at least 2 years. WoW around that much probably too. There has been games that allowed people to play for free for a month. Ragnarok Online is an example of that. You can download the client, or even have a cd shiped to you for free, and then you can create an account and play it for free for a month. No credit card asked, nothing. I have a friend that created an account every month and just transfered his items. Of course being able to play for free like that created a game full of exploiters, bots and macro. People would just register a dozen accounts and have them bot 24/7. AC and RO didn't get much from their policy. Why? Because most people get a game because they like it, not because it's cheap. They won't mind paying for it, they might even pay extra for a collector's edition if it's a game they are really interested in. Games are a luxury. If someone can't afford 50$ or 10$ per month, he should be trying to find a better job instead of worrying over a cheap luxury item.

Again... I never said let people play for free, I said let them play for the monthly subscription rate... which means they have to subscribe and cough up a Credit card number.

When taking the full risk up front you need to balance cost and percieved quality... that's because YOU'RE accepting the risk when you pay up front. I'm suggesting manufacturers not force people to accept that risk of quality. In such an environment the decision to continue a subscription won't be based on luxury type triggers like how glossy the box is and how expensive the game is... the decision will be based on performance. That's the whole advantage of a low cost of entry business model... assuming of course you have a quality product. The ability of artificially inflated cost to draw customers is a fashion phenomena, and most products fall on a continuum between fashion and commodity, which is very price sensitive. Another aspect of fashion is low real incremental value between cheap and expensive products, the quality difference between a $40.00 and $150.00 pair of sneakers is virtually zero. Value is based on superficial aspects like "this years model" and "all the stars are wearing them".

The MMO market doesn't fit the fashion mold at all... it's more like a cable or cellphone subscription, you pay and get a service. If you think another provider offers a better service then you switch unless something stops you.

Now the big up front cost does a couple things, it adds a barrier to entry (reducing patronage), but also a barrier to exit once someone is in (I paid 50 bucks so I don't want to quit and go to product B). In all likelyhood it's the exit barrier that's of most interest to the MMO companies (if you honestly think their business model is based on recouping sunk costs with an entry barrier then... well... perhaps I'm wasting my time).

Now Cable and Cell phone manufacturers are more mature businesses that have had time to work through the the models we've been discussing. What they ended up with is a system that eliminates the barrier to entry but still retains the exit barrier (1 or 2 year contract with free sign up)... it's a slightly less sleazy way to play the game but it's still intended to tie you into the services whether you want it or not. I expect the next variant on MMO pricing we'll see is going to be something along those lines... "Sign up for six months and get the client for FREE!". That's a $90 dollar commitment that you'll be responsible for if you decide to cancel early. That will likely be where it ends, because that's the model that we see most often in similar businesses. I guess I could live with that, assuming there was a one month "get out of subscription free" provision, which most of those models have.

As far as complexity, most SP games are also 2-4 years in development, MMO games as I said are no more complex and possibly simpler than well made SP games because they take advantage of generation old technology. You think a game like EQ2 is more complex than Half Life 2... a bleeding edge technology game? Yet EQ2 costs almost as much, before you start paying the subscription.

Frankly, how much money a person makes has nothing to do with their willingness to be suckered in by these sorts of marketing schemes. My salary puts me in the top couple percent of Americans (my stock options alone last year were more than the median US salary), but that doesn't mean I like feeling like I'm being ripped off, that's a red herring.

[Riftmaker]

I with Thoran on this one. I have a little bit of an idea to deal with this.

What if a downloadable SP demo was distributed *for free* that allowed you to make a character, walk around, look at stuff, kill a few things. Just to see how the game worked. If you liked it, you'd go out and buy the game.

The problem with MMOs is that you have to cough up $50 for the game, plus $15 for the subscription, just to TRY THE DAMN GAME. That's ridiculous. As a result of this, there is no way for people to gauge whether or not they like the game, except on past experiences. I played EQ for about 2 months, hated it, and quit. In that time, I probably spent over $150 on the client / expansion packs, plus subscription, because I was promised that I would like it.

With UO, I got a free CD with one of my PCGamer magazines. It also came with a free subscription. I was like "hey cool, a demo". I played it, hated it, and threw it out. The only difference was I wasn't out $150 like I was with EQ.

I personally think that a playable demo would solve all the problems. Once you know you actually LIKE the game, you probably wouldn't be opposed to paying the necesarry money for it.

As an example, I already know I will like HL2 based on my past experiences with HL. So I coughed up the money for the Collector's Edition. I was willing to pay the money because I knew I liked the game. I am willing to bet that other people would be willing to pay the money for MMOs if they KNEW they liked the game.

Make free playable demos!!!

[Luvian]

A demo is an idea I can agree with. It leave the prices as is, and allow people to try the game for a while.

The problem is that you can't really make a single player version or a MMORPG. Or at least, it wouldn't have the same feel at all.

There was a mmorpg in development a few years ago that had planed something like that. I think it was mimesis online. They had the intention of creating a seperate trial area people could play in to test the game. I don't know if this recquired a different client and you then had to buy the game as usual if you liked it, or if they gave you the real client for free.

Anyway, I'm not even sure the game got released. I never heard from them in ages.

Thoran, I don't see the 50$ as a marketting scheme. To me it's just the price of the client. Just like you usually buy a cellphone and then get a service. And yes, I know some companies give you a basic cellphone for free. It still doesn't change the fact that most people buy theirs, and that cellphones aren't considered free. They're just sometimes a gift if you subscribe.

You're really tight with money if you care about 50$. I paid about 90$ for Cities of Heroes and a 3 months time card, and just because I wanted something to play in the 2-3 weeks until WoW's release. And guess what? My salary put me in the poorest Canadians.

[ 11-11-2004, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: Luvian ]

[Harkoliar]

Originally posted by Riftmaker: I with Thoran on this one. I have a little bit of an idea to deal with this. What if a downloadable SP demo was distributed *for free* that allowed you to make a character, walk around, look at stuff, kill a few things. Just to see how the game worked. If you liked it, you'd go out and buy the game. The problem with MMOs is that you have to cough up $50 for the game, plus $15 for the subscription, just to TRY THE DAMN GAME. Make free playable demos!!!

i agree for the free demo one. but most (well some that i know), offer free one month free subscription i guess thats the best alternative they are willing to give you.

[RoSs_bg2_rox]

You may not just go and buy the game after a demo though. Firstly, there is the fact that a small percentage (I couldn't tell you a figure) would not like the demo, and therefore would not buy the game. These people might otherwise have bought the game. Take for instance Doom3, there was a lot of hype and so many people bought it, yet some people only played it for a few hours, decided it was crap, and then left it. Now obviously this is a minority, but still.

Also there is the fact that if people realise they can download the demo for free, then they will also realise that they can probably download the entire game for free, albeit illegaly. Now this obviously wouldn't affect everyone, but I mean it would still decrease sales.

Maybe playable Demos seem like a good idea, but this is only for the player. They don't actually do much for developers, other than that they may get some extra people playing as it is free who may like the game. But if a game is good then it will get a good repuation->people will recommend it to others->it will become widely known->more people will buy it.

Anyways, back to the original topic . MMORPGS are a good idea, both for customers and developers, the potential danger is that you get hooked. I have never been hooked on an MMORPG yet (I haven't played that many to be honest) but I have been hooked to multiplayer games, not if they were ppm games I would have spent a lot of money. And if you think about it, after you have played for say 10 months you have been paying far too much. Although it also means you are probably not buying any other games, so it may be balanced.

I will be getting WoW simply because I am a WC fanatic. I'm not sure if I agree with you Luvian. If a shop has a sale, then they will sell more. Why? Because the prices of the items are lowered, and are therefore more widely accesible.

[Thoran]

Originally posted by Luvian: A demo is an idea I can agree with. It leave the prices as is, and allow people to try the game for a while. The problem is that you can't really make a single player version or a MMORPG. Or at least, it wouldn't have the same feel at all. There was a mmorpg in development a few years ago that had planed something like that. I think it was mimesis online. They had the intention of creating a seperate trial area people could play in to test the game. I don't know if this recquired a different client and you then had to buy the game as usual if you liked it, or if they gave you the real client for free. Anyway, I'm not even sure the game got released. I never heard from them in ages. Thoran, I don't see the 50$ as a marketting scheme. To me it's just the price of the client. Just like you usually buy a cellphone and then get a service. And yes, I know some companies give you a basic cellphone for free. It still doesn't change the fact that most people buy theirs, and that cellphones aren't considered free. They're just sometimes a gift if you subscribe. You're really tight with money if you care about 50$. I paid about 90$ for Cities of Heroes and a 3 months time card, and just because I wanted something to play in the 2-3 weeks until WoW's release. And guess what? My salary put me in the poorest Canadians.

Well I don't think my wife would call me tight with money [img]smile.gif[/img] (I don't think much of dropping a hundred bucks on a bottle of Scotch, or 60 bucks on Half Life 2, or a couple grand on go-fast goodies for my car), I am however extremely PICKY, and if I feel someone is trying to put something over on me I'll go out of my way to avoid it... whether it's $5.00 or $5000.

I guess in this instance I understand enought about the various marketing options available to these vendors to know that the one they've chosen is NOT being used for altruistic reasons. It's being used because it's the most agressive one they can get away with and customers are swallowing it.

Riftmaker has the perfect example of MMO Marketing in action. They KNOW that there are a certain percentage of Riftmakers are out there... people who will buy the game and not like it. Instead of allowing those players to try before you buy they force them to take the risk and buy... and in his case throw a hundred bucks down the toilet. THAT is exactly what I object to, because it's not necessary, it's a greedy money grab on their part. SP game makers provide demo version of their games (at least the good ones do).

I understand a demo might be tricky for them, but certainly a one month trial is WELL within the realm of possibility, let users download or order a one month subscription (or maybe 15 hours of play or something) for $15 bucks (DON'T give it away free or you'll have every little shit in the country on there babbling incoherently)... if after that month they love the game then go for the full subscription. At that point if the game maker STILL insists on front loading the package (something I still feel is unnecessary) at least the user knows what he's paying for. The only MMO that I ever tried was UO and that was the situation. I played for an hour and all I encountered were a bunch of illiterate kids, and the graphics STUNK... so I lost interest almost immediately. However, I have read reviews of MMO's I'd be interested in trying (WoW specifically) and the inability to try it out has and will keep me away.

[ 11-12-2004, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[Luvian]

Originally posted by RoSs_bg2_rox: I will be getting WoW simply because I am a WC fanatic. I'm not sure if I agree with you Luvian. If a shop has a sale, then they will sell more. Why? Because the prices of the items are lowered, and are therefore more widely accesible.

You just proved my point. You're going to get the game because you like it. Not beause of it's price.

I'm sure all the people interested in the game will buy it regardless of the price.


Thoran, that's what open betas are for, a free test. Everyone know they're not really looking for bugs at that point. It's just a way for them to get people addicted before they even buy the game. You could have joined it if you wanted.

Why do you plan on keeping away from something you might like just because of a small risk. Just think of it as investing in a company, and them potentially paying you back in entertainment. Haven't you ever lost 100$ on the stock market before?

[ 11-12-2004, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Luvian ]

[Lord of Alcohol]

How much is Halflife 2? Likely $50-60. What if you dont like it? I really cant see the difference. Any game can suck, it doesnt really matter if its an online game or not.

[Kakero]

Originally posted by Lord of Alcohol: How much is Halflife 2? Likely $50-60. What if you dont like it? I really cant see the difference. Any game can suck, it doesnt really matter if its an online game or not.

Return the game back to the shop you bought it from.

[RoSs_bg2_rox]

Ehm...I think you'll find that isn't allowed...Well, at least not here anyway.