Are CRPGs as good as they used to be?.

[Gnarf]

Me too waiting for that one [img]smile.gif[/img]
There's always roguelikes y'know [img]smile.gif[/img] They're great fun (currently addicted to T.o.M.E.)...

[Tar]

Hmm I been to the TOME site and not much info is there. Can you tell me more about it plzs? Is it a single player rpg type? And is it text base or something since I noticed that the size of the download files are rather small.

[Azred]

I remember playing Bard's Tale (was that really almost 20 years ago? [img]graemlins/saywhat.gif[/img] ) and not feeling bored with the game no matter how much I played it. Then came the SSI Gold Box games and they had the same effect--they kept their freshness despite multiple playings.

What I have found is that it doesn't take fancy graphics--or even a lack thereof, in the case of older games like Bard's Tale--to make a great game, only a great plot. Take NWN--I didn't care for the way it looked or played. The overuse of graphics took away from what could have been a wonderful game. Of course, it doesn't help that I don't like first-person view; I much prefer isometric.

[Paladin2000]

IMHO, the recent CRPG games aren't actually sucks (not so much at least) but they all seemed to miss the main point of playing such games--storyline.

Nowadays, it is all about graphics, sounds and kick*ss weapons. Most newer players are more concerned about these point, especially the *most powerful weapon" for a say level 40 fighter can wield.

Those days, all we have were just plain CGA or VGA 2D graphics. The developers would just have to focus more on the storyline.

What drove me to complete those games then was the fact that I was eager to get to the ending. It is all about storyline. These days, all I have to do was to obtain the maximum level, get the best weapons and pretty soon, I am too bored to continue any more.

Anyway, it was fun while it lasted...

[ 04-04-2003, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Paladin2000 ]

[Gnarf]

Hmm I been to the TOME site and not much info is there. Can you tell me more about it plzs? Is it a single player rpg type? And is it text base or something since I noticed that the size of the download files are rather small.

Single player, yes. Originally 'sorta' text based (using ASCII chars instead of graphical tiles), but you can use some graphical tiles (at least in the windows version) now. As most roguelikes (such as NetHack, Angband & Dungeoncrawl) it's a perma-death game (you use one savefile per character, and the game is always saved when you quit, meaning that you can never restore an old save if you mess up or die), this makes it extremely difficult. Very large game, extremely addictive (IMHO).

[Sir Goulum]

Gentlemen, I've said this a million times! Dont lose faith in Bioware (Yet) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Nerull]

[QBIMHO, the recent CRPG games aren't actually sucks (not so much at least) but they all seemed to miss the main point of playing such games--storyline. Nowadays, it is all about graphics, sounds and kick*ss weapons. Most newer players are more concerned about these point, especially the *most powerful weapon" for a say level 40 fighter can wield. [/QB]

I agree completely. I bought and played NWN, but was a little disappointed with it. I have actually gone back to playing BG2, simply because there is a storyline. I love PST for the same reason. I still have not played either version of IWD, and I bought the entire Diablo series on sale, and after a few days found myself back on BG2, mostly because of the story and interaction.

Hey, the old Ultima was entertaining, and I was very addicted to Bard's Tale in the day (dating myself big time! ). I liked the original Pool of Radiance, etc. Even though they were more hack and slash than anything, they at least had something of a storyline (or at least the best they could in that day). Compare that to Diablo, where its just "kill everything in the dungeon, and go sell stuff to the people who somehow are just sticking around the demon-infested dungeon just to sell you stuff." If I wanted an arcade game doubling as an RPG, I would dust off Gauntlet Legends, or even go back to one of the old Nintendo ones (Black Tiger, the old Sega game Shadowrun, etc.).

NWN, if it is the future of RPGs as they have heralded, showed me that the future is very bleak. They are designing a turn-based Greyhawk game now; maybe that will be better. But I felt like there was a major lack in NWN of a story. I tell Aribeth that she is full of it (playing evil), and she still continues the conversation like I said something good. A paladin wouldn't even tolerate your presence; you would be investigated for your role in the slaughter at the school. The plot is so flimsy, contrived, and transparent (force-feeding you along the path, by making it only one single way to truly interact with the game). Why side with the paladin if you are evil; why not sell them out? Even the original BG1 had more options than NWN.

NWN was designed for multiplayer, where you would get interaction from the others you were playing with. I play solo; I do not like multiplayer. I don't want to have to go online to interact meaningfully with the game. However, that is where the future lies; look at how much Sony, Microsoft, etc. are pushing the online gaming. They truly are aiming at the 14 year old powergamer who blows his entire allowance on a game; if you want proof of that, look at Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance.

Sorry for the long post, but I just had to vent on that (before going back to going through BG2 again ).

[Luvian]

Originally posted by Nerull: Quote: [QBIMHO, the recent CRPG games aren't actually sucks (not so much at least) but they all seemed to miss the main point of playing such games--storyline. Nowadays, it is all about graphics, sounds and kick*ss weapons. Most newer players are more concerned about these point, especially the *most powerful weapon" for a say level 40 fighter can wield.

I agree completely. I bought and played NWN, but was a little disappointed with it. I have actually gone back to playing BG2, simply because there is a storyline. I love PST for the same reason. I still have not played either version of IWD, and I bought the entire Diablo series on sale, and after a few days found myself back on BG2, mostly because of the story and interaction.

Hey, the old Ultima was entertaining, and I was very addicted to Bard's Tale in the day (dating myself big time! ). I liked the original Pool of Radiance, etc. Even though they were more hack and slash than anything, they at least had something of a storyline (or at least the best they could in that day). Compare that to Diablo, where its just "kill everything in the dungeon, and go sell stuff to the people who somehow are just sticking around the demon-infested dungeon just to sell you stuff." If I wanted an arcade game doubling as an RPG, I would dust off Gauntlet Legends, or even go back to one of the old Nintendo ones (Black Tiger, the old Sega game Shadowrun, etc.).

NWN, if it is the future of RPGs as they have heralded, showed me that the future is very bleak. They are designing a turn-based Greyhawk game now; maybe that will be better. But I felt like there was a major lack in NWN of a story. I tell Aribeth that she is full of it (playing evil), and she still continues the conversation like I said something good. A paladin wouldn't even tolerate your presence; you would be investigated for your role in the slaughter at the school. The plot is so flimsy, contrived, and transparent (force-feeding you along the path, by making it only one single way to truly interact with the game). Why side with the paladin if you are evil; why not sell them out? Even the original BG1 had more options than NWN.

NWN was designed for multiplayer, where you would get interaction from the others you were playing with. I play solo; I do not like multiplayer. I don't want to have to go online to interact meaningfully with the game. However, that is where the future lies; look at how much Sony, Microsoft, etc. are pushing the online gaming. They truly are aiming at the 14 year old powergamer who blows his entire allowance on a game; if you want proof of that, look at Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance.

Sorry for the long post, but I just had to vent on that (before going back to going through BG2 again ).[/QB][/QUOTE]The whole point of Neverwinter Night was to sell a computer engine that would allow people to emulate traditional pen and paper games. The single player game is just a sample game to show you what is possible to do with the engine. You don't go online to "interact meaningfully with the game", you go online to interact with the other players in your group. That's also why you only get to control one character. That's because you roleplay that character. You are that character. Just like in pen and paper games.

Humm... so only 14 years old powergamers blow their entire allowance on a game? What about the 14 years old roleplayer who buy a game? Is not blowing all his money on a game too?

[Nerull]

Originally posted by Luvian: The whole point of Neverwinter Night was to sell a computer engine that would allow people to emulate traditional pen and paper games. The single player game is just a sample game to show you what is possible to do with the engine. You don't go online to "interact meaningfully with the game", you go online to interact with the other players in your group. That's also why you only get to control one character. That's because you roleplay that character. You are that character. Just like in pen and paper games. Humm... so only 14 years old powergamers blow their entire allowance on a game? What about the 14 years old roleplayer who buy a game? Is not blowing all his money on a game too?

Sure, there are 14 year old roleplayers out there. But more and more there is this move towards the hack & slash element and on skimping on the story, much like Paladin2000 stated. There is also this move towards online gaming; NwN is especially designed for this. However, they did not flesh out the characters in the game to the level of a BG2 or PST. You are right in that you go online to interact with the other players, but what if I don't want that? What if I want to come in from my very erratic hours at my job (which pretty much prevent me from multiplaying, at least with the same group, since my schedule is never reliable), and just sit down and play an RPG where I can interact with the characters? All I'm saying is that I really enjoy NPCs that are truly fleshed out and allow you some solid interaction with them. I felt that NwN was lacking in this area; hell, I would have loved it if I could take 2 other NPCs (or even one other) with me, and have them interact with each other. I don't have to control the other NPCs; let them do their own thing (I did install the mod that allowed them to change their strategy based on my orders, though; it only makes sense as the leader of the group to be able to tell them to conserve their magic for the bigger fights). However, I have come to prefer games that allow me to interact meaningfully with the characters I run into in the game. I didn't get that impression with NwN; in fact, as I played through, I could see where they rushed the campaign design (almost an afterthought). I have heard there are new campaigns out there now, designed by players who noted the lack of interaction, which allow for greater interaction between the characters in the game. I have yet to download them, so maybe that is where I need to start. I noticed that others feel the same way; go through the boards (especially the posts back when NwN first came out), and you will see them comparing the game to Diablo. Diablo is notorious hack and slash; why would they make that comparison if the game was fleshed out with NPC interaction?

I guess, in my own roundabout way, I am agreeing with Paladin2000. I see more and more games coming out which involve "kill the enemy, take the treasure, go buy bad-ass weapon." And I guess my big question is this: why are these things selling so well, unless there is a market out there for this type of game? Sure, there are 14 year old roleplayers out there, but obviously from the prevalence of hack and slash playing in many cases (i.e. Baldurs Gate Dark Alliance, Diablo, etc.), there are plenty more 14 year old powergamers out there who could give one whit if their companions say anything as long as they kill the enemy. They should take off the RPG label on these games and call them "strategy games." If you aren't interacting with the characters in the game, then how is it roleplaying? You are essentially using small-unit tactics in a fantasy setting; if that is the case, I'll go buy Warcraft III.

[Paladin2000]

Generally speaking, games that comes with construction set, tools and online playability sucks in terms of storyline.

Why? Because the game developers has given you all those tools and they expect you to create your very own storyline. It is too bad that not every one wish to be a Dungeon Master and some people (for example, me) would prefer to play the game as and when we have the time, therefore limiting our options to single player experience only.

Anyway, I have never owned NWN. But based on the reviews that I read earlier, I decided long ago that I wasn't going to buy that game because I have never fancied myself as a DM and never will be. If I am going to design my game scenario and come out with a kick*ss storyline, it is because someone is paying good money for me to do it.

Meanwhile, if I am expected to pay money for a CRPG game, I would expect the game developers to come out with something better than fancy weapons and plenty of blood and gore.