100% spoken dialogue. Yay or nay?

[Stratos]

Originally posted by johnny: quote: As for non-American voice overs; doesn't that that thief you meet in the slums in BG2, you know the ones that goes "Coo", speak with an Aussie accent?

Nah, i think it's an attempt at creating a character with a Cockney English accent. Mind you, not a very good one though. [/QUOTE]That was supposed to be Cockney?

[Brayf]

Originally posted by Sever: Spoken dialogue will indeed highlight recycled lines.

Haha, that's what I was trying to say!

Originally posted by Sever: I'm wondering if there may be a "shut up" function to cancel a line.

I'm pretty sure there is, it was mentioned in the E3 demo IIRC.

EDIT: http://www.consolegold.com/Articles/...artID=106&pg=2
Fourth paragraph down. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 10-15-2005, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: Brayf ]

[Sever]

So we can tell 'em to block it. Much goodness.

I remembered another issue i have with spoken dialogue though it's relatively minor. A great feature of Morrowind was the ability to seamlessly blend player created mods with the existing game (depending on the skill of the modder, of course). Artwork and scripting on par with the original could be added by almost anyone who took the time to learn it. And the results speak for themselves. Morrowind is one of the most modded games out there.

But voice talent is a tool that is beyond the means of all but the most avid modder. And in a game full of voices, there'll be a clear distinction between the original and "after market" elements.

I'm not sure if this'll turn out to be a big deal or not. I'm sure there'll be options within the editor to assign existing voices to player created npcs, but this kinda impedes upon the modders' creativity. And freedom of creativity, more than anything, is important for the production of quality mods.

Having large sections of new dialogue presented as text when everything else is spoken is going to detract from the whole immersion factor. And the thought of the voices that some of the 'would be' Patrick Stewarts are gonna come up with is already making me cringe. I wouldn't be surprised if a whole new voice talent pool springs up within the modding community not long after Oblivion is released. If it doesn't *shrugs* perhaps it should.

Your thoughts on this?

[Brayf]

Yeah, I guess I agree. Although as you say, it's a pretty minor point. It's certainly not something I'd be likely to care about either way unless something major happened mod-wise, but I do agree with the ideas.

[TheCrimsomBlade]

TO start my spelling sucks, it has always sucked and always will so, try to over look the bad gramer and mis-spelled words. Thanks

There are 4 well known actors M/F and 10-20 something others doing other voices. There is also the option of readable text if you want to set it for voice or both voice and text.

I really like the Idea of being able to stand off to the side and over hear two or three NPC's talking about things happening in the country without a box poping up with the same thing in print. Afterward moving to another group and hear someting different that may be what I need to know or maybe entering into the conversation with any of the groups myself or just taking what I hear and useing them as I see fit or leaving the quest selection alone all together and moving on.

There are alot of things in Oblivion that has never been done before and some people are going to like it and others will complain but, they will have to live with it or go play something else.
If you don't like PC's and NPC's talking to each other and really prefer to read the story then go buy a book.
Bethesda Has done what no other game company has ever done and that is taken the time to give us NPC's with a high level of artifical intellegence with synchronized speech and mouth movement. Its what thousands and thousands of us have asked for. I think it's going to be great to have some NPC walk up to me and not have to read or hear the same line over and over from every NPC in the game and I hate that big POP UP BOX with the list of what you want to hear for the NPC.
Then because of what I do throughout the rest of the game it will determin what that same NPC will say to me the next time I talk to him or her.
For those of you that want to read everything, there are 80,000 other games on the shelves for you to read and 40 million books at the library with much better stories.

To worry about MODS and the voice acting later is kind of dumb or else you are really a Newb to RPG games. Alot of us have been playing RPG's scence the early 80s and with only pencils and GraphPaper with each of the players sitting around a coffee table makeing up everything on the fly as we played and you want to talk about crapy acting and really stupid sounding voices you should have been around back then. The RPG world and the Modders of today have come a long way and to worry about bad voice acting is a waist of time as long as the MOD's are good and they get the ideas across then who really cares if they are not perfect voice actors its only a game and all about having fun so try to do that because I really like what I've seen so far and can't wait for the day its in my hands.

[Sever]

Originally posted by TheCrimsomBlade: There are 4 well known actors M/F and 10-20 something others doing other voices. There is also the option of readable text if you want to set it for voice or both voice and text.

Even with 30 actors, that's still 30+ npc voices per actor. Not counting the fact that the well known actors will be restricted in the number of npcs they give voice to. You don't think that's going to be a bit... Samey'?

The option of on-screen text is mandatory. I can't imagine a voice-powered game being released without it. But no text-only option?

Originally posted by TheCrimsomBlade: I really like the Idea of being able to stand off to the side and over hear two or three NPC's talking about things happening in the country without a box poping up with the same thing in print.

A valid point. But if it meant richer (un-dumbed) dialogue without having their voice characteristics forced on me, i'd actually prefer a pop-up box. That's just me...

Originally posted by TheCrimsomBlade: If you don't like PC's and NPC's talking to each other and really prefer to read the story then go buy a book. (...)there are 80,000 other games on the shelves for you to read and 40 million books at the library with much better stories.

Oblivion in paperback? Lone Wolf just don't cut it no more. CRPGs and books; Chalk and cheese. They can't be compared one to the other.

Better stories? Better than the dynamic story that is generated in my head as i play? Not likely. I love rpgs and i love books. But for different reasons. ES rpgs sacrifice quality and diversity of character for flexibility of story. Books are inflexible in story but have better presentation through richer dialogue and characterisation. (Well, a good book at least!) But what i'm saying is that there's no reason why ES rpgs can't have this same level of quality. If only they'd make better use of 5 fraggin' gigabytes!

Originally posted by TheCrimsomBlade: I think it's going to be great to have some NPC walk up to me and not have to read or hear the same line over and over from every NPC in the game and I hate that big POP UP BOX with the list of what you want to hear for the NPC. Then because of what I do throughout the rest of the game it will determin what that same NPC will say to me the next time I talk to him or her.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, and i'm sorry for sounding cynical, but even 5Gb of spoken dialogue isn't gonna solve the generic speech syndrome. I cannot imagine the npcs being head and shoulders above those in Morrowind in terms of uniqueness of character. I'd love to be proven wrong, but common sense tells me they're gonna have to cut corners somewhere. 5Mb of speech per npc isn't a lot...

Originally posted by TheCrimsomBlade: To worry about MODS and the voice acting later is kind of dumb or else you are really a Newb to RPG games. (...) The RPG world and the Modders of today have come a long way and to worry about bad voice acting is a waist of time as long as the MOD's are good and they get the ideas across then who really cares if they are not perfect voice actors its only a game and all about having fun so try to do that because I really like what I've seen so far and can't wait for the day its in my hands.

Thinking ahead isn't a newb trait. Nor is it dumb. The reason i brought the mod issue up in the first place was because of Bethesda's tendency to leave certain important elements of their world 'blank'. There are countless examples of player made mods that present ideas that make you think: "Wow, that should have been part of the original." Oblivion will be the same. But through no fault of Bethesda's. There's only so much one team can implement after all. And they have provided the means for players to incorporate their own ideas. But the whole voice thing is going to isolate the after market mods from the original. Although, as i ponted out, this is a minor issue for most. Still, it would be good if they provided some means of access to voice talent to promising modders...

Originally posted by TheCrimsomBlade: Alot of us have been playing RPG's scence the early 80s and with only pencils and GraphPaper with each of the players sitting around a coffee table makeing up everything on the fly as we played and you want to talk about crapy acting and really stupid sounding voices you should have been around back then.

I am a PnP virgin. But again, it's apples and oranges. As a pencil and paper player yourself, i'm sure you'd agree that it can't really be compared to crpgs.

Originally posted by TheCrimsomBlade: There are alot of things in Oblivion that has never been done before and some people are going to like it and others will complain but, they will have to live with it or go play something else.

Haha! Wrong you are. I'm gonna play it, love it and complain loudly. For that is how progress is made.

For 10 or so years now, i've been toying around with various ideas for the perfect rpg. Sometime since then i realised that the perfect rpg is a myth but that doesn't stop me from thinking and dreaming. Bethesda is the only company with a product that even comes close to my thoughts on the perfect rpg. "Go anywhere, do anything". That's where the future's at. The concept that they've been pioneering is so full of potential that i can't help but stick my two bits in.

[CerebroDragon]

Originally posted by TheCrimsomBlade: TO start my spelling sucks, it has always sucked and always will so, try to over look the bad gramer and mis-spelled words. Thanks

Grammar and misspelling? Or was this intended as a joke?
But yes, it is a little inconsistent. (Not to be harsh, just honest)
There's only so many times I can read the word "offical" without cringing.
I've some experience in english tutoring, so I hope you can understand.

Originally posted by TheCrimsomBlade: There are 4 well known actors M/F and 10-20 something others doing other voices. There is also the option of readable text if you want to set it for voice or both voice and text.

If this is true, then I am quite pleased that Bethesda is ensuring flexibility in this area. Bear in mind that I'm not complaining at all, merely enjoying being a part of the discussion. This is what we're here for after all, is it not? Spouting our minor gaming irritations, celebrating a game's virtues or otherwise.

Originally posted by TheCrimsomBlade: I really like the Idea of being able to stand off to the side and over hear two or three NPC's talking about things happening in the country without a box poping up with the same thing in print.

Sure, I like it too. But if one is able to select between text/spoken dialogue in Oblivion then you won't necessarily have to deal with the window popping up with the same thing, or am I missing something here?
However, this isn't a revolutionary idea by any means. Even Arx Fatalis featured small clues and snippets of conversations whispered through various characters as you passed by in the city. Obviously it wasn't implemented on the scale as it will no doubt be with Oblivion, but the idea was there.
Arx also featured no dialogue boxes (unlike its great spiritual mentor Ultima Underworld) but instead opted for cut scenes and sub-titles. It was a beautifully immersive experience for me personally, but as a preference I would have liked more text and interactive dialogue options.

Originally posted by TheCrimsomBlade: There are alot of things in Oblivion that has never been done before and some people are going to like it and others will complain but, they will have to live with it or go play something else.

Well, I think gamers have a cash-given right to express their opinions. We do that here all the time, don't we? I'm sure Bethesda are reasonable enough to know how to sort through rational constructive criticism from the everyday rubbishy whinging nonsense that must appear in abundance on the ES forums. Logically however, if there is enough voicing of opinion on one particular aspect of the game, it will be heard.
So being forced to play something else isn't really an option if you're serious about your games and like to get involved in the discussion of them. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by TheCrimsomBlade: If you don't like PC's and NPC's talking to each other and really prefer to read the story then go buy a book.

Quite frankly, this is an absurdly invalid preposition. How can a book replace the physical (mouse or keyboard driven) interaction that is done within a 3D cRPG experience? Whilst reading is generally a physically passive exercise, the act of gaming obviously is not. Furthermore, people tend to go to books and games for different reasons, not to necessarily replace one with the other. Case in point: I'll be reading "Chess is my Life" by Karpov tonight and all of a sudden burst out with longing for an immersive 3d dungeon to explore. Sorry but whilst my mind can imagine a chessboard ok, I really do struggle to mentally conjure the physical details of my Radeon 9200's creations.

That's not to say Roleplaying books are not an option of course! I grew up reading gamebooks, which a long with the C64, were essentially my introduction to roleplaying in the late 80s/early 90s.
I noticed you mentioned Lone Wolf series, Sever. You can actually play these online now, thanks to Joe Dever and the team here: http://www.projectaon.org.
I actually still treasure and ocassionally read books from my Fighting Fantasy collection - there's still half a dozen or so that I need for the entire set!
I must update my thread in books/movies sometime...

Originally posted by TheCrimsomBlade: For those of you that want to read everything, there are 80,000 other games on the shelves for you to read and 40 million books at the library with much better stories.

As I've already shown, this response is not really valid since the experience of your normal every day reading and the reading done whilst gaming in an interactive 3d world, is obviously different in scope.
And while I may yet get to play 20,000 of those games and read 40,000 of those books you mention in my lifetime, there is no reason why I can't be a part of the Oblivion experience. Its not an either/or, exclusive/inclusive issue for me and I'm sure Bethesda would feel the same.

Anyone with a love or passionate knowledge of the history of cRPGS will know how prominent a role the story can have in the experience of playing it. Presumptiously comparing Oblivion's stoyrline negatively to the classics of literature does not detract me from wanting to play it merely to enjoy that aspect. Not in the least. Whilst I don't expect Oblivion's dialogue and plot to be Shakespearian in proportion or quality, I do expect it to at least meet and possibly raise the bar from Morrowind's standards. Is that too much to ask? I'd like to think it isn't.

Originally posted by TheCrimsomBlade: I think it's going to be great to have some NPC walk up to me and not have to read or hear the same line over and over from every NPC in the game and I hate that big POP UP BOX with the list of what you want to hear for the NPC.

What's there to hate about it? That you had to actually stop and read, or even think? It amiably served its purpose of conveying dialogue options rather well, I thought. Being able to resize it to taste, was also a nice touch.
If anything we were spoilt by not having to TYPE each dialogue option into a box instead! (A la the early Ultimas)
But really, my imagination is rich enough to be able to imagine different inflections and idyosyncracies upon phrases and common NPC speech in my head, so that's no problem to me at all.

Originally posted by TheCrimsomBlade: To worry about MODS and the voice acting later is kind of dumb or else you are really a Newb to RPG games.

Are we following the same discussion? I think this thread has dipped into some bigger issues than what's merely on the surface. (I.E What aspects of voice/text creates immersion?) It is also a bit presumptious and dare I say it, 'dumb' to equate any opinion on these matters to someone being new to the cRPG genre.

Originally posted by TheCrimsomBlade: Alot of us have been playing RPG's scence the early 80s and with only pencils and GraphPaper with each of the players sitting around a coffee table makeing up everything on the fly as we played and you want to talk about crapy acting and really stupid sounding voices you should have been around back then.

Admittedly I've only been into roleplaying since the late 80's, but I still meet regularly with a group of mates to play Pen and Paper AD&D. Ad libbing dialogue is truly an artform to behold, but we never care if someone struggles to stay in character or mumbles some incoherent lines. These get togethers are about fun, catching up over a few brews, humour, a good interactive story told with some lively debate thrown in. Its human, free spirited 'otherworldly' fun. There are other possibly deeper themes at play, but I won't go into them right now. [img]smile.gif[/img]

In the world of cRPGs however - there is an audience. This audience expects a little more shall we say, professionalism from its purchased product. Creating a cRPG as a commercial digital artform logically will have standards it must meet for it to be deemed succesful by its creators and also by its audience. To not be concerned with these issues even on a small scale would seem somehow negligent and even ignorant to me.

What I am trying to say is, the expectations and hopes expressed in this thread are somewhat of a by-product of our consumerism and love of the cRPG experience as a whole. It is thus only natural that discussions of this kind take place and so generally I don't find the Pen and Paper analogy that useful.

A certain date in November is fast approaching I must say! I'm sure this forum will start going bezerk with traffic any time soon. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 10-23-2005, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: CerebroDragon ]

[TheCrimsomBlade]

The point I guess I'm trying to make is, no mater what kind
of RPG game that anybody makes there will be people that like
to complain that it's just not enough, that it is just not the way
the way they want it. Then before relese to complain about something
in game before it's been played or even hit the shelf is lame IMHO!

AS someone above said we are all entitled to our view and opinion and
mine is; I like to give things a chance before I bitch about it because
I never want to turn into my wife.

I have been privledged to see this game or at least parts of
the game that most of the world hasen't and have been asked
not to say more than I have or than what follows.

I am aloud to say this>
Oblivion is very much like Morrowind with better graphics more
voice acting, smarter AI and a better story or should I say a
new story many years in the future from when Morrowind took place.
It's not the game that will stop the world from spinning. It is
a much improved PC game with alot of new features that make the
game run much smoother than Morrowind and there are no two PC that
look exactaly alike. The faces are real cool and if you work with
the Face maker you can make your PC look like anybody you know
including yourself, though not exactally but close. I noticed that some
of the guards look like the people at Bethesda softworks and
others look like actors M/F around the world from Movies and TV.
It is an open end game that seems to not have those loading
screen pauses and makes it flow much better.
The only time I saw a loading screen pause was when
you transport from one place to another and when you go through portals.
The game graphics reminds me a little of Ark Fatalis meets Morrowind
meets Far Cry and I liked the magic effects more than those from Morrowind.
I still haven't seen the horses yet or at least no one ridding.
The part I saw was way into the middle of the game so I don't
know how the face maker workes or what happens when you meet
the king other than the little movie from the New York showing,
that was released early.
For all of you that loved Morrowind
you will be very very happy with the improvements made to their
Graphics engine and the other new content.
I REALLY WISH they would finally put out the offical OS requirements.

[ 10-23-2005, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: TheCrimsomBlade ]

[Bithron]

You know, I've never heard player spoken dialog?

But, that would be crazy, right?

[img]smile.gif[/img]

[The Sexiness]

Normally I would be in full approval of spoken dialogue as it adds a sense of depth and uniqueness to NPCs, but when dealing with games as huge as the Elder Scrolls series, it is just impractical.

The massive amounts of NPCs will surely sound boring and repetive, no matter the quality, variety, or number of voice actors, simply because you are bound to find numerous NPCs that sound the same and say the same thing.

But in all honest after playing for endless hours straight I think most of us here will probably begin to just ignore most of the stuff that we hear over and over.

100% spoken dialogue in Oblivion? Nay (but not all together a bad thing).