Nalia

[Accord]

Originally posted by caleb: Its just so annoying when she goes on her rant about how we are not helping the needy here when we are saving her damn home.

That I would agree.
But we are talking about "magic" contribution to a party...and I think it is just bad timing for her random conversation/dialogue that annoys the h*ll outta me...then again....so does Aerie......and Jaheria (sometimes)... *sign*

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Long live H22A1!!!!!

[Black Knight]

Bumping for hailitho
BK

[Grand-Ranger]

Originally posted by Accord: I said she is "one of the best" mage in the game, not "THE BEST". And you DO NOT get Imoen until later in the game (which for many of us, Imoen is a bit behind on experience since many of us do the side quests before doing the main plot ones), so Nalia is a good substitute and I usually ended up keeping her. Although true I would agree Imoen is better, HOWEVER, I do not recall I've said that anywhere on this thread until now. As for Jan, if the exp cap is still in place, he WILL NOT reach as high level as Nalia, and he levels up slower. Stats wise, Jan only has INT of 16 while Nalia has 17. Overall Nalia has attribution points of 87, and with STR of 14 she can carry a few items before using any STR enhancing items...also her DEX is 18. As for Jan, he only has total attribution points of 81. And the only attribute point Jan has more than Nalia is WIS....(14 v.s. 9). Since Jan is a specialist mage, TRUE he does get the bonus of being a specialist, that means the opposite school is Necromancy, now I know that Illusionist has about 14 spells...while Necromancy has about 15....but Jan is missing out on some of the spells like Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting and Finger of Death, which I consider pretty powerful/useful magic in the course of the game. For those who likes to talk about how much better Jan is as a thief as Nalia, we are talking about mages here. But Nalia is still able to detect/disarm traps from my own experience, which is what I use a thief for in my games. Also Nalia will stay, you just have to do that pesty NPC quest. Don't get me wrong, I do like Jan, hell of a funny fella. But he tends to be filling up the empty spots for my evil parties.

Ok good point,,but,,whos better overall?

Naila might have more attribution points...but shes frikken annoying,which we already covered.Now,Nalia Dualed at 4th level! How is that ganna compete with 16 and 17 level people.Jan is a better theif peroid.And funnery,much.

Now,he dosnet get necromancer,ok bad drop back.But dosnet his theifing and extra illusion spells and comedy take up for that?Also I think that Jans quest is intresting,and (unless your a fighter) Nailas quest is is just time consuming.But thats just me.


Now we covered quests and Magic,lets do theifing.

Jan hands down. Much better,now you can say "Well what if you have,say,edwin for maigc,you dont need Jan for theifing cause theres Yoshi." Well we all know what happens to Yoshi.

So overall i think Jan better

[dafan]

Originally posted by Grand-Ranger: Ok good point,,but,,whos better overall? Naila might have more attribution points...but shes frikken annoying,which we already covered.Now,Nalia Dualed at 4th level! How is that ganna compete with 16 and 17 level people.Jan is a better theif peroid.And funnery,much. Now,he dosnet get necromancer,ok bad drop back.But dosnet his theifing and extra illusion spells and comedy take up for that?Also I think that Jans quest is intresting,and (unless your a fighter) Nailas quest is is just time consuming.But thats just me. Now we covered quests and Magic,lets do theifing. Jan hands down. Much better,now you can say "Well what if you have,say,edwin for maigc,you dont need Jan for theifing cause theres Yoshi." Well we all know what happens to Yoshi. So overall i think Jan better

ehh you forgot one thing about the keep... you will get one of the greatest weapons there... flail of ages... and I tell ya it's worth going there for that



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I'm a protector of good
a seeker of truth
a symbol of light
a man of honor

[Avatar]

A direct but slightly weaker Mage than Imoen would have been.
She is equal in Mage terms but much weaker in thieving skills. You can NOT rely on her as a thief she only has it so she can use cool shortbows. She will be 2 or 3 levels highier than Imoen in C4.

[Reeka]

I left her in the Asylum when I got Imoen back. She got on my nerves and her theiving skills were shitty.

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O_H_F

[debiler]

One of the things that are very, very annoying(except Nalia) is the one of having no real choice when you´re in need of a good thief that is effective even in the later stages. You gotta stick to Jan or play a thief yourself, cause Nalias and even Imoens thieving skills are too weak. There should have been at least one adequate substitute for Jan.

[white heron]

Where is Dynaheir when you need her?

[Accord]

Originally posted by Grand-Ranger: Ok good point,,but,,whos better overall? Naila might have more attribution points...but shes frikken annoying,which we already covered.Now,Nalia Dualed at 4th level! How is that ganna compete with 16 and 17 level people.Jan is a better theif peroid.And funnery,much. Now,he dosnet get necromancer,ok bad drop back.But dosnet his theifing and extra illusion spells and comedy take up for that?Also I think that Jans quest is intresting,and (unless your a fighter) Nailas quest is is just time consuming.But thats just me. Now we covered quests and Magic,lets do theifing. Jan hands down. Much better,now you can say "Well what if you have,say,edwin for maigc,you dont need Jan for theifing cause theres Yoshi." Well we all know what happens to Yoshi. So overall i think Jan better

Interesting that you decide to bring the thiefing into this discussion, however, speaking from my own experience I never had Jan for my good party long enough to utilize his thiefing abilities, both Nalia and Imoen were able to step up to the challenge when a trap is needed to be detected and disarmed, you just need to have those two walk slowly while detecting traps (and NOT run around like some psycho in a dungeon), try it, if you don't believe me. Personally, I prefer magic over thiefing, I always have (or try to have) 3 "mage magic" users in my party, for a good party that would be Aerie, Nalia, and Imoen (and potentially my PC, if I am using a dual class mage). For evil party, I always have my PC (berserker/mage or kensai/mage), Edwin (obviously), and Jan. Jan is probably the best choice since he is a multi-class thief/illusionist, and I don't like Yoshimo anyways (like I always say, you only need a decent thief, not the BEST thief) even though there is a way to keep the Yo-man alive through out the story.
As for the quests, I've actually find Nalia's keep (fighter or not) a good place to gain $$$$$$ and experience, not to mention a couple of worthy items during the course of exploring. As for her own NPC side-quest, yes it is long for what you get, but overall if you plan to have a powerful mage she is a worthy investment. Quests wise I think Nalia offers more "opportunities", which is excellent for a lower level, beginning party.
As for what "out weights" another, in terms of being practical in a game, the first factor is determine by your party's layout and the contribution of individaul team members or how they work as a team. So this is a highly subjective matter (and dependent on your own unique situation), BUT I would not discount Nalia simply because she is "annoying" (at least she is not annoying and arrogant like Anomen). And if you are able to put up with Jaheria and Aerie, I don't see why a person cannot put up with Nalia.... *sign*. Theifing wise, I've said it before, she is capable to detect traps which is thief's primary purpose for me (I don't like "borrowng" stuff even if I am playing evil). Speaking of spells....the extra lllustion spell is not that useful, comparing to a more diversify spell caster. Nalia can cast Illusion spells too, but she can also deal the damage from Necromancy spells, and honestly, how many times do you use Illusionist spells during a fight...maybe a Mislead for your mage when things gets hairy, or Improved Invisibility 10' Radius before a fight?
You've also mentioned levels of the characters, since Jan is multi-class, true he can become lvl 16 in thief (under the assumption that exp cap is in place, otherwise this discussion is meaningless, anyone can become a god), but don't forget he is only a lvl 13 mage....compare to lvl 17 which Nalia is capable of achieving (4 levels might not seem to be much, but actually it does due to spell capablitiy progression), I don't think magic wise there is any doubt especially Jan has 1 INT lower than Nalia, Nalia offers more power.
To sum things up, Jan is better in theifing (duh!! ) and comic relieve, and Nalia is better in spell casting and quests area... in terms of practicalness, I would still pick Nalia (provided the whole alignment thing is applicable) since I felt that magic is a big part of the game and for the experience that her quests offers.

P.S. in my past two recent games, I've already developed a good-aligned Kensai/thief, hence just a personal reason for not having Jan for my good party.

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Long live H22A1!!!!!