Newbie's First Party (Advice welcome)

[leptomeninges]

First of all, I agree with Dave above.

Secondly, a few tips on building your characters (and I'll try to avoid spoilers). This isn't to try to talk your out of (or into) anything as much as to give you a better idea of mechanics you may or may not already understand.

Dwarven Fighter (Decided against the Lord for similar reasons mentioned...)
The reason people recommend Lizards is because they are *so* quick to unlock elite skills by maxing VIT, STR, and DEX. You're probably up to speed on these already, but just in case you're not you can find them here:
http://www.flamestryke.com/wizardry8...ls-expert.html
It isn't just that your lizard gets it first and your dwarf gets it later. It's the levels when your lizard has it that these skills are autoleveling as you fight. This allows them to reach much higher numbers than your dwarf might without training.
I almost always dual wield my fighters. Shields never seemed worth it to me. If you do dual wield, be aware that maces are far and away the easiest type to find off-hand weapons for although you may want to take something different for your main hand. In terms of game availability for main hand sword>mace>>>axe.
Also just FYI you have to manually select the berzerk attack from the menu unlike the other class specific attacks (backstabbing, etc.) I recall that it took me a while to realize that the first time through.

Dracon Samurai (I'm pleased that this choice has some background credentials! Although I considered a Lizardman for awhile also.)
People usually dual-wield swords. Your sword skill will rise pretty quickly on its own if he's dual wielding and in the thick of things. You shouldn't have to pump many points into it. The decision for most people is pumping skill points into a ranged weapon or magic, and most people take magic (you did pick a hybrid after all). At level up you are almost always better served by putting your points into the Wizardry skill rather than any of the sub-classes (ie: fire, earth, etc.)

Felpurr Ninja (Named after my cat, Ebon. Have read that dual-wielding will add to critical strike potential, so am curious.) Again, if you're dual throwing most of the time, these skills are going to rise pretty quickly on their own. The next question is pumping magic, stealth, crits, or a melee weapon. Remember to max her senses first to get the eagle eye skill. By the way, I think chances are *very* high that your Ninja will run out of ammo early on if she's mostly throwing. If she does be sure to either cast spells or move her into melee range so she can use her martial arts or whatever weapon you have equipped. Don't let her sit idle on the back row. Every character should always be doing something every round. Not only does this make good common sense, but every time you do something you have a chance to gain a skill-up in it. She may only miss with her martial arts, but at least she may level it up.

Rawulf Priest (Gone for bless/heal to start)
I have never played a priest, but I expect that your magic schools will rise *very* quickly on their own given that he'll be healing a lot. You'll probably want an extended reach melee weapon (some flails and most staves) or a ranged weapon for him. The most important elite skill for any caster is the one associated with intelligence (powercasting), not piety (iron will) as you might think for a priest.

*Mook Bard (Unsure on the precise build)
There is only one skill you have to pump for bards and that is music. Again, if you're playing often it also will rise pretty quickly on its own. The next quesiton is a melee or a ranged weapon. Endurance based casters can deplete their stamina pretty quickly. You'll want to give him any stamina potions you find and depending on your playstyle you may want to buy some also if you don't want your casters to be constantly restoring him.
Just FYI a lot of people compare Bards to Gadgeteers and there are a lot of debates over which is stronger. Bards are definitely easier the first time through as their instruments are found preassembled whereas you actually have to put the Gadgeteers things together. In my opinion Bards peak early while Gadgeteers peak late, but both are quite strong. One big difference is the Gadgeteers omnigun. Some people hate it because it doesn't do much damage. The thing to remember is that when fully upgraded it can cause every negative condition in the game. Don't underestimate it.

*Elven Mage
See priest above. The big upside of an alchemist (imho) is that they can mix potions which both raises your alchemy skill and can be sold for good cash. You should be able to find a list of the recipes on the forum somewhere.

A few other random thoughts and tips. These things made the biggest difference in my ability to play at higher difficulties. Some may disagree. I dont mind

1. Understanding the formation window. It looks like a sonar or something in the lower left. If your weak casters are getting hurt, the answer frequently lies here.
2. Use the terrain. Sometimes this means backing into a corner so you don't get surrounded. Sometimes it means running.
3. Learning to exploit Arnika. It's the first town. I won't give any specifics except to say that there should be a big difference in a pre and post Arnika party.
4. Learning to keep up every possible protective spell at all times. There are two types. Some which only last through combat and others that stay up all the time. Keep the long-lasting ones up all the time. (This incidentally is one of the key reasons for a bishop -- to keep all these up. Your party will miss the psionic based buffs. Not a game-breaking flaw by any means, but something to avoid at high difficulty. Now that I think of it the only one you may miss without psionics is xray vision which isn't so important. I'd have to double check though).
5. Learning to train skills (which some people do think is cheap) and which skills to improve at level-up. This just takes some time.
6. Understanding the importance of "conditions." While your casters can do very respectable damage, keeping negative conditions on the enemy and positive ones on your party usually gives more utility for their mana.

Good luck with your game! It's fun to think about Wiz 8. Dang I enjoyed this game.

[ 09-27-2006, 04:15 AM: Message edited by: leptomeninges ]

[CerebroDragon]

G'day once more!

Thought I'd post a quick update on my progress and first impressions. I've played for a few hours today and are having had an absolute blast exploring the lower monastery. I've reconfigured the keys to the classical 'W,S,A,D' movement and I must say, I'm having serious Ultima Underworld immersion flashbacks which is fuelling my enthusiasm for the game nicely. It's like a cross between UU and a much more sophisticated Wizards and Warriors, the turn based combat flowing very well for my tastes so far.

My party's progress:

Dwarven Fighter "Norry" - Level 6 (Going for Str and Vit)
85, 30, 90, 50, 50, 35
For roleplaying reasons, I've chosen to specialise in Axes, which I understand is not really desirable from a power-perspective. That said, I just found a pretty nasty looking meat cleaver!

Dracon Samurai "Aro" - Level 6 (I may have fluffed his stats a little thinly in the early levels I think, but now that I'm getting spells, I'll start on his magical skills. Sticking with the one blade, for now...
71, 55, 30, 70, 64, 61, 39

Felpurr Ninja "Ebon" - Level 5 (Going for Senses,Dex,)
50, 50, 30, 50, 65, 75, 69. As I have read before, and above (thanks for the great tips again Lepto!) I am already noticing a dearth of throwing weapons at the moment, which i'm dual wielding in order to hopefully get some ranged crits.

Mook Bard "Naddy" - level 6 (Dex/Sens/Ranged attacks)
50, 50, 25, 55, 77, 35, 78. Have been impressed with this characters abilities already - the music skill has come in handy and saved my party from being tactically overwhelmed a couple of times. Looking forward to other instruments and improving her ranged attacks.

Rawulf Priest "Mel" level 6 (Piety/Spd emphasis)
40, 40, 92, 55, 40, 72, 56.
She's doing really well so far, although I am running low on spell points for divine magic fairly regularly. I like the way the identify spell works...hopefully investing in it will save some funds in the long run.

Elven Mage "Ed" Lvl 6 (Int/Spd focus...frost/fire)
35, 90, 50, 35, 55, 75, 35. Doing nicely also - I wanted to create a 'frost mage', but have gone for balance in fire aswell.

A couple of questions to finish off:

1) My next concern is ensuring I am well on the road to getting the powerful defensive spells that I read about in ScottG's tips post. At this stage, I have access to Magic screen and armourplate. What magical paths are the most essential for these?

2) I've saved just before the stairs to the Upper Monastery. Is my level typical for this area?

3) I found the wall safe "for emergencies only"...but have not yet found the key. Should I keep exploring, or have I missed it already?

4) Any further tips on making sure I get most out of the hybrid characters would also be nice!

The hardest fight I have had so far was with four Metallic Slimes, which I had to flee from in the end, due to only two characters not being unconscious. We were already in fairly bad shape as it was and I was very lucky to survive. Took one of them out using magic missiles and fire sticks, but when I returned to kill the rest they were gone.
I also fell foul of that statue pit trap and was lucky to survive a massive slime and spider fest upon landing.

Well, sorry for the long rant, but just wanted to show how much fun I'm having so far! [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

Cheers,
CD

[Nightwing]

Well it sounds like you are having fun. Keep looking around that statue where the pit trap is to reveal a key. Level 6 is good for the upper monestary but I wouldn't recomend going past level 7 for the road you take out of the monastary, in fact level six works best. You may want to also explore around the top of the waterfall befor going upstairs also if you haven't done so.

I had a dwarf fighter useing ax and mace duel wield and it worked out great. you may need to use a hammer in your off hand and an ax or cleaver in the other. You will want to talk to the arms merchant about some special items for your dwarf if you are going to use axes throughout the game.

You want to get enchanted blade, and gaurdian angel for buff spells both are devine realms and can make a big difference in your combats. I think both are priest spells. Rest all in the water realm would be wise also. I don't want to give away too much but hit every button and turn every dial it is a great game and there are little treasures everywhere.

If you get stuck www.flamestryke.com is a great site to get immediate help from.

[leptomeninges]

A few random thoughts and suggestions... Take them or leave them as you will

Dwarven Fighter "Norry"
I think the "fun" of the character always trumps powergaming. Besides, you may decide to play a second time with a different character composition.

Dracon Samurai "Aro"
The key reason to dual wield the swords is that every time you attack you have a chance to critical hit (instakill) or lightning strike, but it's not like there's a law or anything
On the other hand, I'd strongly recommend that you stop spreading stat points. The incremental benefit of having a samurai with slightly higher int for instance is much lower than unlocking powerstrike or iron skin earlier in the game. For most characters you'll only unlock two elite skills by a reasonable point in the game to level them up significantly. Exceptions to this are some "pure" classes and stat-rich races (Lizard, hobbit). For a samuri I'd go with STR and either VIT or DEX. Opinions are split on what is better, iron skin or reflextion. (Or at least they were when I played a lot. Perhaps it has been settled by now.) When leveling my samurai I rarely put points into swords as it leveled fast on its own. Most of my points went into criticals and wizardry with odd points into close combat or ranged weapons if I used them.

Felpurr Ninja "Ebon"
Just stick with it throwing-wise. The supply does improve a bit, but you always need to buy every throwable every vendor has. When visiting cities you may want to visit vendors multiple times to stock up.

Mook Bard "Naddy"
The best thing about bards is that they are strongest when your other characters are weakest (early and mid game). He will tail off a bit end-game, but the rest of your party will be so strong that it won't be noticable.

Rawulf Priest
The low spell points illustrates a few things. First, this is one other big benefit of a bishop. Since they unlock all spell schools they end up with far more spell points than any other caster class. Secondly, make sure you have at least one spell in each realm (earth, fire, etc.) and try to cast a spell from each realm in every fight. Every time you cast you get that chance to skill up (the chance increasing when you cast at orange or red difficulty). Having all realms maxed by endgame won't give you as many spell points as a bishop, but it makes a difference. Remember to put your points at level up into the priest spellbook rather than a realm whenever possible. There is a formula (that I can't recall) that determines the max spell level you can cast. It includes the realm, but is *heavily* biased to the spell school (ie: mage, priest). Another thing you can do to increase your spell points is to buy and learn every spell that you can. When playing with bishops you have to save your spell picks for spells that can't be purchased, but with pure casters you shouldn't have this problem.

Elven Mage "Ed"
As above I suspect that you'll want to advance all his realms if you can. Not only for the spells, but also for the spell points.

Answers to quesitons:
1) They will become available as you level. You won't struggle to find them as long as you level your main magical school first.

2) You're doing fine.

3) There are several tricks and secrets like this in the Monastery, but the nice thing is that none of the items or benefits are so important that if you miss them you're in trouble. If you want to avoid walkthroughs for now there really isn't any reason that you have to unlock these things. You will find better items than anything here later. Be aware that there is one area in the monastery that you can't access right now. You have to return later.

EDIT:
You can find a full listing of spells by spellbook and realm here:
http://www.flamestryke.com/wizardry8...llindexw8.html

[ 09-28-2006, 02:57 AM: Message edited by: leptomeninges ]

[Wereboar]

> Dwarven Fighter "Norry" - Level 6 (Going for Str and Vit)
Most axes are two-handed. So if you want to use them, no need to use a hammer as an off-hand weapon, as suggested by other people

> Dracon Samurai "Aro" - Level 6
Samuria usually does dual wield, since each hit may be a critical hit. But since his AC is much worse than the one of the fighter, a shield is quite useful.
Don't push int with this one - it doesn't do much excpet poviding powercast when you reach 100. But pushing the wizardry skill is good.

> Felpurr Ninja "Ebon" - Level 5
IMO the ninja is the weakest class in Wiz8 for a long time. If i answered before, i would have suggested using a ranger instead. Ranger get criticals with bows and xbows. And their automatic seaching is a very nice feature for a first game.

> Mook Bard "Naddy" - level 6
Bard is a very useful class. Mine use instruments most of the time, and a bow (no melee in a party like this with a fighter and a samurai).

> Rawulf Priest "Mel" level 6 (Piety/Spd emphasis)
I go for Pie/int with my priests, to get powercast.

> Elven Mage "Ed" Lvl 6 (Int/Spd focus...frost/fire)
You should build an all-rounder mage. Mages get attack spells in all realms. By now, you should have fire ball, whipping rocks, shrill sound, magic missile - group spells in 4 different realms. So when your fire spell points are gone, proceed to the next realm.

> At this stage, I have access to Magic screen and armourplate.
All the buffs (except a quite useless one) are int the divinity and wizardry scools. At the moment, you could learn missile shield, too. All of the protection spells are available at level 8 or earlier.

> 2) I've saved just before the stairs to the Upper Monastery.
I was level 8 when i finished lower monastary for the first time. Now, i'm usually level 4-5. Looks quite normal.

> 3) I found the wall safe "for emergencies only"...
The hint (pit trap) was already in another reply.
Another thing you might have missed (nothing vital) - did you try to walk into the water in the room inside the monastary?

> 4) Any further tips on making sure I get most out of the hybrid characters
If you want them to be true hybrids - with good fighting and casting abilities - you have to go for powercast early, and they will be quite weak until rather late in the game (say level 16). In your party, with specialist spellcasters present, concentrate on their fighting skill, and use magic only for ranged attacks.

> The hardest fight I have had so far was with four Metallic Slimes,
The enemies are quite random, and depend on your class. And the dungeon is repopuleted over time; when there are (non-fixed) monsters left, they are replaced, too.

> was lucky to survive a massive slime and spider fest upon landing.
If in doubt, run away. Then find a place where only a few can attack you at one time.
(only found out about this pit trap when i read a walktrough later. didn't manage to set it off in my first game)

> but just wanted to show how much fun I'm having so far! [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]
I'm on my maybe 50th game, and i'm still having fun.
BTW my current party consists of: fighter, bard, priest, mage, and ranger.

[Nightwing]

The onlt reason you want to duel wield with an ax and mace is the large axes in the game are so slow. The beastmaster does good dammage especially when you use your beserk feet and you can get a very good off hand mace latter in the game. Together the two of those weapons are fun for a beserking dwarf. I did not like using the two handers because they lowered my init. so much. Play to a concept, that's the most fun.

[xfactor]

In general specialisation is the key to creating powerful characters, so spreading out your points at level up to allow you to increase Int with the Samurai isn't a good idea. I tend to use my Samurai to cast things like Missile Shield - it gets his skill up and it's anon-combat spell. With your party I don't think you can afford to waste the Sam in combat. He needs to be fighting. I'd stick with dual-wielding swords. Samurai can wear some decent armour and you should be able to survive without a shield.

Your Priest needs to make sure they're putting points into Divinity every level-up. It gives you a bunch of extra spell points. Piety does the same, but I find Intelligence and Speed are more important, especially with your lack of other healers.

Consider trying to improve Staff skill with the Monk (not sure what staff weapons are available early on - Bo is the only one I can think of). I find that throwing becomes very expensive because you have to buy so much ammo and it doesn't tend to do much damage, unlike arrows/quarrels/stones which can benefit from the weapon used to fire them. Also, towards the middle of the game throwing will become inefficient as the enemies get better faster than the throwing ammo improves.

Bear in mind that any party combination can be effective and if things are tricky you can always take it easy for a while and do a bit of exploring instead of following the paths the game tries to push you down.

xfactor

[el_kalkylus]

Originally posted by xfactor: Also, towards the middle of the game throwing will become inefficient as the enemies get better faster than the throwing ammo improves. xfactor

Agree. The throwing skill includes sling and stones so you don't go wrong putting points in this skill though. A ninja however will always do damage on a hit with darts or throwing knifes, and dualwielding these could prove more beneficial than using sling, even at the middle of the game.