Hopefully this time.

[Nightwing]

Target, Dwarves make good priests although they have below average dex, sp, sen, and int. You would like to have your priest quick to get up protection and later dish out deathwish to thin down the competition quickly. An Elf makes a very good priest with 30 points to spend they can become great fighters if you start them early with a bullwhip and change to vampire chain later or a staff at the beginning also an extended weapon, there are some great staves you can get and with the elfs high INT. the priest will learn combat as well as realm skills faster tha a Dwarf.
Remember you don't get extra damage when using a whip or flail when your enemy is unconcious or asleep, or blind you will with the staff.

[booklord]

I once had a party without magic-users (Bard, Gadgy, Rogue, Fighter). Then I won wit a pure magic party ( no fighters or hybrids )

@ Loudhy; i don't consider a party with a Gad or Bard to be non-magic-using. Try this one, which i finished on Normal, with only one reload due to deaths: 2 Rawulf Fighters and a Faerie Rogue.

Granted I'm still on my first party and their average level is 18. But I've just recently fought my way (expert difficulty) through Rapax Rift, Rapax Courtyard and Rapax Castle to get to Ferro. ( Let me tell you keeping Ferro alive during the huge Rapax Castle battle wasn't easy )

My Group

• 18th level Dwarf Valkryie
• 18th level Elf Samurai
• 18th level Human Monk
• 18th level Hobbit Ranger
• 19th level Mook Bard-Fighter (18-1)
• 17th level Faeire Bishop
• 18th level Higardi Valkryie under a constant hex effect
• 16th level Android Monk

Anyway at one point a group of Rapax came up behind me in Rapax Rift consisting of....

• 8 Beserkers
• 6 Priestesses
• 6 Samurai
• 6 Warlocks

I didn't see them coming till they were already in spell range, and it was an open area so all spellcasters had a clear shot.

My first actions were to have the speed happy monk and samurai cast soul shield and elemental shield before the enemy spellcasters could get off a single shot. The bard-fighter tried to get a few with Freeze All and the Bishop cast a full power Haste. Vi Blessed the group and everyone else tried a few early distance weapon shots. In the first round the beserkers surrounded the group but the elemental shield and soul shield managed to keep it from being crippled by status effects.

Fighting off the beserkers was harrowing. The bishop's(over 100 powercast) repeated Freeze Flesh casting managed to take out only two. Meanwhile a few status effects from the enemy spellcasters took hold despite my protective spells. To add insult to injury the enemy spellcasters cast a wide variety of heal and protective spells on the Beserkers. It was only due to the power of the fighter types. ( who scored a couple vital critical strikes and knock out hits ) that everyone managed to survive.

Once the beserkers were dealt with it was simply a matter of wiping out the spell-casters. Forunately with full spell defenses up, they simply lacked the damage capabilities to harm the group faster than my bard-fighter could heal them.

How the heck do you win that battle with a pure fighter or pure spell caster game? I've never been able to significant widespread damage or status effects to Rapax with spells. ( even the bishop with a powercast over 100 ) Spellcasters would be worn down and beaten. As for the no-magic game wouldn't the spellcasters just bombard you with Hex, Paralyzation, Noxious fumes, etc. spells? Without Magic Screen, Elemental Shield and Soul Shield wouldn't the party be rendered helpless within a few rounds? Heck once the magic resists go down fireball and crush spells really start piling on the damage.

So my question is how do you win with a no-magic party? or with a no-warrior party?

[ 06-22-2004, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: booklord ]

[Nightwing]

Booklord, You have to go in prepared with eye for an eye, soul shield scrolls, magic screen scrolls potions of haste, flash powder, pandamonium powder and did I mention Eye for an eye potions, heal all and rest all scrolls death cloud bombs acid bombs and enough time to use them all that's the hard part.

[booklord]

Nightwing, really? That would be an expensive victory indeed.

Take a look at the group of enemies...

You've got 18 enemy spellcasters casting fireball, web, freeze flesh, noxious fumes, crush, whirlwind, hex, etc..... Is there an elemental shield scroll? In order to survive the no-magic group would need a lot of scrolls and potions. ( BTW I've had very limited success with Eye for an Eye and Rapax ) And remember paralyzed party members can't heal themselves.

As for the spell-caster group, how do you take out those Rapax beserkers? They'll have magic screen, guardian angel and heal magic support from the spell casters. You'll be hard pressed to kill them with magic.

I do have one solution though. You can run. The rapax are doing in this battle exactly what makes mixed groups more powerful than single-concept groups. They're using different classes to support themselves. The warriors charge forth and attack the group while the priests cast support magic and the mages weaken the group with magic. If I were to have run into a nearby cave or something then the warriors would have likely followed me and as a result been deprived of their magical support. ( Also I probably wouldn't have been surrounded ) Of course the spellcasters would have had a free round or two to pepper me with magic while I ran and its not really my style of play to run from battles.

[Nightwing]

Running is always a good option to divide them. With spellcasters you could summon elementals and cast heal all and death cloud, toxic cloud is very effective all the long term damage spells work great to drain HP and Stamina cast haste on your elementals use canned elementals for anyone who can't summon then no one should be able to reach you and you can cast heal all every turn and you should be able to survive. Just hope the elementals cooperate by blocking the beserkers.

[Target]

DO Gnomes make good magic users? I've never used one before.
I hadn't thought of using an Elf for my Priest, just Dwarf and Rawulf, makes me wonder who is the best choice.

[Nightwing]

Gnomes are great MUs. They get 45 points to spend you can have powercast by level 9 you can alocate 15 points per attribute which will get your speed up to 50 and dex to 70 or piety to 55 senses are a little low at 45 to start. They can also make good bishops.

[Klutz]

As measured by total number of attribute points in the key attributes for the class plus total number of bonus points available (with key attributes in parentheses):

Best Priests (Int, Pie, Spd, Sen): Tie between Human, Faerie, Rawulf. Elf and Gnome tied just a tad behind.

Best Priests (Int, Pie, Spd): Tie between Human, Elf, Faerie. Dwarf, Gnome, and Rawulf tied just a tad behind.

Best Mages (Int, Pie, Spd, Sen): Faerie by a lot. Elf next, Felpurr third.

Best Mages (Int, Pie, Spd): Faerie best, Elf second best, and both ahead of all other races by a lot.

Best Bishops (Int, Pie, Spd, Sen): Faerie by a lot. Elf next, Felpurr third, Hobbit & Human 4th.

Best Bishops (Int, Pie, Spd): Faerie by a lot. Elf next, Felpurr third, Hobbit & Human 4th.

Gnomes are not ideal as Mages and Bishops because of their low Spd... you'll get a powerful spellcaster but be frustrated because their spells will often go off too late to really help your party. That being said, more races are worse than better than them for Mage and Bishop. They do better as Priests because Priests have a minimum Vit requirement, and their good natural Vit helps free up more bonus points for them relative to other races. Also note that these orderings will vary widely if, for instance, you decide your Mages must have a minimum Vit of 50 to survive, or that you want to have the option of class-changing to a specific class.

[Scatter]

About Tactics:
1) Go directly to the Templar bit, and Ferro is never in danger.

2) STEALTH especially if you're not using magic.

3) Sneak around, as out of the way as possible, at the edge of open areas, and use Shadow potions whenever you're in open Zones.

4) Running works, both in and out of combat. Once i have Stamina stabilizers for everyone, i run almost everywhere. Often right past mobs, unless i want the fight. There are very few critters you can't outrun, unless you got too many Dwarves. (one)

5) PP. You can get lots of Death Bombs and Rocket Stix early if you can steal them.

ETC.)Important note here, if your Throwing is over 36 (in Normal Mode), you almost never fumble a Death Bomb. They are disproportionately easy to use. With a no-magic group, put points in this, and fight with better weapons as you get them, because the fighting skills will increase nicely on their own. Sometimes i'll collect all the darts the Sprites drop and just use them until they're gone.
Rogue development is a bit busy, but once your L&T is over 20 with the bonus, you can practise without an annoying amount of fumbling. Same with PP, unless you can't play unpatched. Rogues also need points in Artifacts, because they can use Rocket Stix, which are very lovely till surprisingly late in the game, and they should be the ones developing SPD the most, and should have an Ankh of Speed ASAP and an Amulet of Healing. I have these recharged whenever i'm at a merchant, even if they aren't completely empty, so i always have the maximum available.

Staff of Doom: Death Cloud PL5. Give it to a Fighter. Don't argue.

PP: Killing everyone for drops is just too inefficient, especially since you can get much more loot with PP. If you're picking the patched pocket, development is a little tricky. Say you're in Arnika, practising on the merchants there--there are 7 NPCs with large drop lists, and the 3 RPCs. With the patch, when you enter a zone your "number of attempts before getting caught" is rolled for every pickable pocket, and can be changed only by reloading before entry into the zone. Whether you get something or fail is rolled when you make the attempt, and this outcome can be changed by reloading before the attempt, as well as the outcome of what you get. So go to Tramain first, for the Ankhs of Dex and Speed, so you can put them on to enhance your further attempts. Get everyone you can. I usually have the Mook letter before my first entry into Arnika, so i can get to all 10. Then go to all the other pp victims you can get to. Some are not merchants or RPCs. Once you have gotten your max picks off them all, rest 24 hours in a zone with no victims, and do it again. You can do this in conjunction with all the quests, with a few detours. Getting to the Filcher's Band in the Tree ASAP is also nice. Some victims are really hard, so the success of this kinda takes a lot of patience.

SPD: I always give everyone at least 50 Speed. With a no-magic party, they end up feeding SPD more anyway, so that's not really an issue.
INT: Around 40 is good for a useful learning rate in the respective Combat Skills.
PIETY: the important bit for magic resistance. At the expense of VIT, everyone maxxed Piety by L18. Then they got days of Iron Will training.
AMULET PRO MAGICA: reload and reload and reload if you must, but get one.

I guess the key to thier survival was my patience with reloading for loot, and training. Although they each died a lot, they only all died together once, so i guess it wasn't as bad as some of my other attempts. (i've given up on any starts that got the Angel more than once by monster action, though i've reloaded uncounted elevator kills and the like)

EDIT: Heh, i forgot, reloading for the Magica isn't so bad, just reloading the exit from Trynnton and running down to the Don...it's just a very low % item. I got mine for my trio from the gang guarding the Summoning Stone. I got in Rapax Rift @ L12, so i didn't meet many Casters before i made Templar, and i killed them all with a Death Cloud from Doom--that's an even easier reload: Combat-run into the room with the chests so you can get right up close, save, and just aim the thing into the ramp.

[ 06-22-2004, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Scatter ]

[Target]

Wow, now theres a lot to take in, thanks people.
I guess picking lots of Faerie would cause problems for carrying things.
What races make the best alchemist and psy person.
Also if I have a party of the 4 magic users and say a bard and monk, what plcases should I position then?