First Party - Advanced Help

[dplax]

A pity you can't swim in the ocean outside the monastery.

not too big a spoiler, but you will get a BIG chance to take a swim later. hehehe.

[allstargoaly]

Kudos sultan. Mordenheim the other thing you should consider is positioning of your characters.

If you go Fighter, Ranger, Bard, Priest, Rogue, and Mage; then use this formation->

Front: Fighter Rogue
Outside: Ranger Bard
Middle: Priest Mage


If you go Fighter, Ranger, Bard, Valk, Rogue, and Mage; then use this other formation->

Front: Valk Fighter Rogue
Outside: Ranger Bard
Middle: Mage (and maybe even Valk)

The idea is that you surround the magic caster(s). This way their low vitality doesn't become subject to close range (melee) attacks. Also the reason you COULD put the Valk in the middle, is due to extended weapons. The Valk has a bonus for polearms (which are extended weapons). Even from the middle, the Valk can be affective for close combat.

My personal favorite magic caster is the Bishop. Because you are trying to learn the ropes, the Bishop probably isn't the right choice for a beginner (I think sultan would agree). However, the Bishop can learn every spell (all four books/ Psi, Priest, Mage, and Alcem). I takes four times longer, but I believe it is worth it (only do it when you think you are comfortable with the game).

As for sultans suggestions (which for the most part I definetly agree with) for classes and professions this is what I think...

Fighter/Dracon or Lizard
Valk/Human or Lizard
Rogue/Hobbit (definetly)
Mage/Faerie or Elf
Bard/Human, Elf, Mook, or Hobbit
Ranger/Human or Mook

The reason a Lizard/Fighter is most often used is for the Lizard's other resistances. Yeah it has a couple negatives but so does the Dracon (and the Lizard has more resistances than the Dracon). However I still agree with sultan... Dracon/Fighter is my favorite (seeing how you get 60 points to use!).

Valk is a toss up. What ever suits you better (negatives but strength with Lizard or well rounded no resistances Human).

Rogue is always a Hobbit (60 points). I mean you could use use a Faerie but Hobbit is definetly the best choice.

I do think that Faerie is the best choice for any PURE magic caster. The Faerie has many down falls but makes up for them with magic ability. It can't carry much, low HP, can't uses specific weapons (or armor). The positives are high MP, natural MP regeneration (regenerates faster than anyone), and a lot of starter points (50 for a Faerie Mage!!!) An Elf is a good choice but I still like Faerie/Magic Caster.

A Bard is, like the Valk, up to your liking. I use Huamns, Elves, and Hobbits. I usually use Mooks for Gadgeteers (by the way, a Gadgeteer is something you should look into using because there are a lot of gadgets to be use and found in wiz8; and by the way, why don't you have one in your group?).

Mooks are naturally good at using ranged weapons (they make good Gadgeteers and Rangers). Again, I don't use Mooks as much. Humans are the better choice. I honestly think that the Humans are the best characters because they don't have negatives (but don't have MANY positives either). They are the most well rounded and their skills are much higher in the beginning (compared to the Mooks).

My personal best combo was...

Fighter/Dracon Human/Ninja
Human/Ranger Mook/Gadgeteer
Hobbit/Bard Faerie/Bishop

Well that's my 2 cents... I hope that I helped. GOOD LUCK!!!

[ 10-15-2003, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: allstargoaly ]

great point about character placement, ASG. both solutions you present are viable. the other one that people talk about, and that i'll frequently use, is no one in front, 4 or 5 across the middle, and 1 or 2 in back.

the benefit to this is that everyone across the middle can attack the front, and the people on the sides can attack two sides (the front and their respective flank) with short range weapons. the down side is that the character(s) in the back are facing the wrong way - so when you get attacked by enemies with extended reach, the spellcasters in back are penalised for being attacked FROM BEHIND.

for this party, i would recommend:

front: n/a
middle left: priest bard
middle center: ranger
middle right: rogue fighter
back: Mage

although the rogue and fighter are the best two damage dealers in the game, the reason to put them together is that the rogue's stealth will make whoever they are paired up with a big target. the fighter gets the best armour and hp, so makes a natural choice.

regarding bishops, i've been a huge fan of these since my first party, but they do take a fair bit of attention to develop well. it took me about 3 goes before i got it right. some recent testing suggests that relative experience level between caster and enemy plays a large role in spell effectiveness. if this is true, it puts the bishop at a disadvantage, particularly towards the end game, as they are up to 3 levels behind pure melee'rs (eg rogue or fighter). however, i'm not convinced this is actually as important a factor as i thought.

i do disagree slightly with the assessment of faeries. their armour and weapon limitations mean little to a mage or psi, but for a priest or alc this restriction is a bigger issue. further, a larger party can compensate for their carry capacity penalty if there's only one, but in smaller parties, or large parties with multiple faeries, this can be a bigger issue. finally, that nice set of robes you can buy later in the game more than compensates for the faeries faster mana regen, making elves, in particular, better in the long run. (the amulet of nebdar offsets this, but only for a single faerie.)

having said that, i support the choice of faerie for the mage, even if i would personally prefer an elf, because it's a larger party with 5 non-faeries.

generally speaking, there are no bad choices for races or classes. however, some races work better with some classes when you intend to build them in a certain way. so, if you like to plan ahead, consider what "kind" of priest you want, for example, and then choose a race that will suit that build strategy the best.

going with the priest example, if you want them to be a powercasting, offensive magic juggernaut late in the game, i'd recommend an elf, who starts with a high intelligence, can build to powercast quickly, and can still take advantage of the priest's armour and weapon choices. BUT if you want a front-line bashing priest who supplements the party with buffs and healing, i'd pick a more physical race like dracon, who gets high strength, vitality, and dex from the start.

on the other hand, as a new player, with little knowledge of the possibilities, you will probably look at it the other way: i've selected these races for these classes, now how do i build them most effectively? in that case, look at the race's natural strengths and try to take advantage of those with your classes abilities.

for example, if you pick a mook ranger, they have a high starting strength and senses, and senses is important for ranged attack. so you may develop those two stats to the max, and then add some dex later. the high strength gives you the option of picking up a melee weapon later, too, if you so desired...

but if you picked a gnome ranger, you might choose to build on the high dex and senses from the start, making them a truly awesome bowman, and then building up intelligence later, to help with their alchemy and spellcasting. but there would be little opportunity for them to contribute to melee in the end, due to lower strength and ignoring of melee skills.

as eew astutely points out in another thread, wizardry is as much about character creation and party creation, if not more, than it is about the story and the fighting. as such, there's tons to play with, experiment with, and learn about. sometimes that learning will be tough (what was i thinking running a six-dracon party?!) and other times it will be joyous (so THAT's what everyone's been saying about how cool bards are!).

i hope you'll find it as much fun as many others have.

[Starfire]

Though it is possible to finish the game and win with any number of different combinations of parties, my suggestion for a first time player is to use a party that is really balanced. The first time I played wiz 8 I got totally fed up because my parties were all lunch to the many different monsters and enemies in the game and I ended up uninstalling the game and didn't play it again for nearly a year lol

I found this forum and a few others, read a lot of really great advice and tips on building effective parties and decided to give the game another try. Wiz 8 is now my favorite RPG to date.

I chose to use balance for my first party this time around to make it easier for me until I learned to play and build my party members more effectively. Having said that, I would suggest going with 3 characters for melee, 2 pure casters and a ranger for your first run through the game. You can use the hybrids but know that they take much longer to get their levels and a few of them can be tricky to develope properly. Taking pure casters will allow you access to the more powerful spells earlier than if you used a hybrid. Most definitely take a ranger the first run through as they have automatic search function so you won't miss out finding any of the really great hidden items in the game and also the ranger gets criticals with his bow starting relatively early if developed properly. My rangers usually start getting instant kills around level 6 or 7.

The best melee characters in the game are The fighter (that's a given lol) The rogue and the bard (if developed properly)The bard gives you the added bonus of another caster as well using his/her instruments.

I would suggest going with a mage rather than a psionic,epecially for your first run through. The mage and priest have all the best magic buffs. I'd also use a priest rather than the Valkyrie because she will develope her magic much slower and you won't have access to magic screen and soul shield until probably mid game or later, unless you focus on her magic rather than her melee skills and doing that will make her a weak fighter. Valkyries, Lord's, Samurai's, ninja's, monks and the ranger do not gain access to their spells until the 5th or 6th level which is why I suggested taking pure casters the first time through.

You should have no problems with your current party make up, just be aware that the hybrids level up slowly and if not developed properly they can be poor fighters and even worse casters lol

great party suggestion, starfire. i would add that the player could also experiment with his first hybrid classes by adopting vi and rfs their first time through. although not the same as running your own, the added muscle can help survivability, add colour to the storyline, and start to give some flavour to the classes not represented.

the only caveat i would add is that, although it is balanced, it may not be to everyone's liking or style.

spellcasters require a great deal of active managing to both develop and use in combat effectively (personally, i didnt see the worth of magic til i figured out how to run a bishop, then worked BACK to pure casters - how weird am i?).

also, the bard in particular confounds some players early on (including myself!), until they get the hang of it.

but with lots of help available here, hopefully we can make everyone's earliest experiences fun and rewarding enough that they try again with what they've learnt!