Stealth Party - Page 2

Ziggurat · 10-17-2003, 12:48 AM

I think it is almost philosophical on how you make your party. A Bishop will eventually give you all the useful spells for protection and keep you alive, with some offense thrown in. But who wants a religious guy along to survive a battle? I mean, it seems like the warriors could do it themselves. It's a balance, I know, and the religious guys have always played a role in D&D. My point is the Bishop is almost too powerful, although they develop slow.

Maybe this is a weakness of the game or the genre, because one character can do so much. You can spread it out, but it will be harder to do that. Some may say the same about a fighter. They get too good at killing. It would be a different game if both classes were omitted. Harder, of course. There are many factors here. Food for thought.

10-17-2003, 02:34 AM

i agree, zig.

it's the philosophy that really underlies the choices people make when they select a "non-optimal" party for the joy of the challenge or for role-playing, concept, reasons. wiz8 is better balanced than most to deliver to that, which is why so many of us keep replaying it.

it would be interesting to only make certain classes available in certain party sizes. for example, the "everything" classes, like fighter and bishop, might only be available in parties with less than 3 characters. you'd need more classes of course, to flesh out the middle-sized parties, and even more specialised characters for the large parties.

dplax · 10-17-2003, 06:41 AM

About choosing non optimal classes: would aything be worse than running a solo lizzie bishop?

Killer_Rogues · 10-17-2003, 08:43 PM

Yeah, i did choose the party for the reason of challenge as well as just to try and see if stealth and reflection really help that much - and they do. And i can cast soul & elemental shield before every battle, which i usually do. I do miss armorplate, enchanted blade, and especially x-ray. But that is part of the fun - the challenge of making it with limitations.
As far as strength, this has been the major weakness of my monk. i concentrated on dex and spd and now he will hit 8-10 times per round, but the damage is less than i would like, by a long shot. i'm now raising it, but it will take until about level 25-27 to unlock powerstrike... i pushed strength in the rogue and she has become the powerhouse btu the other two are definately lacking... if i had to do it over again, i would have had the monk concentrate on dex and split the remaining between spd ans str. i would recommend this party to anyone looking for a challenge, but not the challenge of a solo fairy ninja or god-forbid a solo lizzy bishop! there's a good mix of melee, range, and magic - downside is that there are limited armor/goddies you can use. not for beginners, but fun for those who are looking for a good replay.

10-19-2003, 02:12 AM

good summary, KR. it's great to see similar experiences with similar parties to confirm the knowledge base.

powerstrike is not strictly necessary, in and of itself, for a melee character to be successful. however, in order to maximise your damage bonus, i would strongly recommend building up strength regardless of whether or not you can max it. in fact, i would recommend building strength as a first priority for a monk, and then your choice of dex or spd, or splitting the points around.

dplax - how bout a solo lizzie psionicist? ...or a solo faerie lord? ...or a solo dwarf samurai? *wince*

[ 10-19-2003, 02:20 AM: Message edited by: sultan ]

Ziggurat · 10-19-2003, 11:30 PM

Hee hee hee. Sorry, just finished a good year at a Renfest. A solo dwarf Samarai? Now that's asking for trouble! Why not make him/her a faerie and go all the way?

10-20-2003, 01:47 AM

with a faerie, at least you have speed and intelligence going for you. a little powercast, and snake speed with dual faerie sticks, and you've got a chance.

dwarves are slow, dumb, and uncoordinated (in wiz 8). and the penalty points by being a samurai will put you far enough behind that you may never get good at anything! maybe a bigger challenge would be dwarf ninja - no buffs in the spellbook and even less armour!

Killer_Rogues · 10-25-2003, 05:06 PM

all right - time for another update for those of you who i know have been losing sleep wondering how this party is going. Well, i forget where i left off last, but i'll update you on where we are now. WARNING - THERE MAY BE SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T COMPLETED THE GAME.
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well, i despite not wanting to take on NPCs, i decided to go the alliance route. i saved the two captives, quickly teleported out of the rapax camp, and did all the running around and blowing up of the savant's ship as quickly as i could so i could get rid of the two extra XP-takers. I successfully did so and, since this was my first time blowing up the ship, i will say i wish there had been a little cooler graphics on that part. but no matter - it was cool to see the two sides united after years of bitter fighting.
Being that i had not bothered to get the destinae dominus from the sea caves, i thought i better head over there and do it. but since i had already done theo whole rapax initiate thing, including the killing of al-seduxes, i was pushing level twenty by the time i got there. so i decided that i should kill marten (again) just for fun. I must say, he didn't put up much of a fight. maybe it's because i have a rogue who is duel-weilding with a light sword and stilleto and a monk who hit 8-9 times per round, but nonetheless it was dissapointing except for the XP i got.
I might as well go ahead and describe where my characters are. the rogue has developed nicely into my tank, obliterating anything that even thinks about getting close to me. armed not only with great melee weapons, she also has the siege arbuss and plenty of lightning bolts to help wound those ranged buggers. My monk is still beating things away with his martial arts and his stamina is finally high enough to make it through almost any fight. His magic has come along nicely and can now put up a quality soul shield before any fight. usually i use him for melee fighting and psionic attacks (psionic blast, cerebral hemmorage) at ranged creatures. i finally got the quality bo from the rapax castle, but usually he just uses martial arts. The ninja has been the most difficult to build. his magic is scattered all over, and i could not figure what weapon to give him when projectiles ran out. i experiments with a couple of sais, he had a polearm for a while, and now he is using the cat-o-nine-tails. he is still most effective with the boomerang shurikan and whatever else i put in his off-hand, but things run out quickly. his magic is ok, but certainly not great. i have been working up his earth in order to get a more powerful element shield, and his fire isn't too bad. if i had to do it all over again, i would have thought it through more and determined what would make him most effective... oh well - live and learn.
As a group, these guys have great initiative, due to the high speed all of them have. i can easily get up my buffer spells before combat begins, and this makes enemy magic virtually useless except in rare cases where battle go on too long and i forget to recast one of the two. I think that the monk and rogue are definately the most powerful, with the ninja not as powerful simply because i didn't build her well. but with two portal spells, traveling has been fairly easy. the light sword (first time!) has added the necessary firepower, and instant kills definately build up (i expect at least 2-3 per battle, sometimes 4 creatures go down in a round or two). the stealth and reflection still help, but not as much as i wonder around AP ( i placed 2 of the artifacts, just haven't had the time to place the third). Overall, i have really enjoyed this party - the high speed and stealth made even Pee-wee a breeze to kill (i was really hoping for an instant kill, but no such luck). the magic with the hybrids added that aspect of game-play, and by now, money is no problem (just for fun, i switched my rogue to a fighter for a level (level 22 maybe?) and bought all the good armor from ferro - golden breastplate, infinity helm, mantis gloves/boots, played a fighter for a level, then switched back and sold it all back... then gave ferro 100,000 gold just to see what would happen... he said thanks) i am beginning to like small parties and need another small party theme idea for the next round - any suggestions? i have thought about the magic party (mage, psi, alch, priest), or maybe a crusade quest (priest, lord, valk) - i'm open to suggestions. happy gameplaying!

Ziggurat · 10-25-2003, 08:16 PM

K_R: Thanks for the story. I agree about developing Ninjas. They are probably the hardest if you want them deadly. Also liked the attempt to give Ferro money to see what happens. Those kind of off-the-wall tricks can lead to game secrets. I tried 1 3C party and it did well. Need some patience tho. Monk, Rogue and Ninja sounds like a worthwhile party. If you can survive early levels, that is. Three is the smallest I have tried. I think it was a Lord, Rogue and Bishop.

Edit: added the last sentence

[ 10-25-2003, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: Ziggurat ]

Scatter · 10-25-2003, 10:11 PM

Heh, my first Trio was Lord, Bard, Bishop. First Duo was Bard and Bishop.

10-17-2003, 12:48 AM	#11
Ziggurat Symbol of Cyric Join Date: November 4, 2001 Location: Baltimore, Md Age: 71 Posts: 1,106	I think it is almost philosophical on how you make your party. A Bishop will eventually give you all the useful spells for protection and keep you alive, with some offense thrown in. But who wants a religious guy along to survive a battle? I mean, it seems like the warriors could do it themselves. It's a balance, I know, and the religious guys have always played a role in D&D. My point is the Bishop is almost too powerful, although they develop slow. Maybe this is a weakness of the game or the genre, because one character can do so much. You can spread it out, but it will be harder to do that. Some may say the same about a fighter. They get too good at killing. It would be a different game if both classes were omitted. Harder, of course. There are many factors here. Food for thought. __________________ How are you today, Citizen?

10-17-2003, 06:41 AM	#13
dplax Jack Burton Join Date: July 19, 2003 Location: an expat living in France Age: 39 Posts: 5,577	About choosing non optimal classes: would aything be worse than running a solo lizzie bishop? __________________

10-19-2003, 11:30 PM	#16
Ziggurat Symbol of Cyric Join Date: November 4, 2001 Location: Baltimore, Md Age: 71 Posts: 1,106	Hee hee hee. Sorry, just finished a good year at a Renfest. A solo dwarf Samarai? Now that's asking for trouble! Why not make him/her a faerie and go all the way? __________________ How are you today, Citizen?

10-25-2003, 08:16 PM	#19
Ziggurat Symbol of Cyric Join Date: November 4, 2001 Location: Baltimore, Md Age: 71 Posts: 1,106	K_R: Thanks for the story. I agree about developing Ninjas. They are probably the hardest if you want them deadly. Also liked the attempt to give Ferro money to see what happens. Those kind of off-the-wall tricks can lead to game secrets. I tried 1 3C party and it did well. Need some patience tho. Monk, Rogue and Ninja sounds like a worthwhile party. If you can survive early levels, that is. Three is the smallest I have tried. I think it was a Lord, Rogue and Bishop. Edit: added the last sentence [ 10-25-2003, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: Ziggurat ] __________________ How are you today, Citizen?

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10-17-2003, 02:34 AM	#12
sultan Guest Posts: n/a	i agree, zig. it's the philosophy that really underlies the choices people make when they select a "non-optimal" party for the joy of the challenge or for role-playing, concept, reasons. wiz8 is better balanced than most to deliver to that, which is why so many of us keep replaying it. it would be interesting to only make certain classes available in certain party sizes. for example, the "everything" classes, like fighter and bishop, might only be available in parties with less than 3 characters. you'd need more classes of course, to flesh out the middle-sized parties, and even more specialised characters for the large parties.

10-17-2003, 08:43 PM	#14
Killer_Rogues Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: October 11, 2003 Location: Virginia Age: 45 Posts: 10	Yeah, i did choose the party for the reason of challenge as well as just to try and see if stealth and reflection really help that much - and they do. And i can cast soul & elemental shield before every battle, which i usually do. I do miss armorplate, enchanted blade, and especially x-ray. But that is part of the fun - the challenge of making it with limitations. As far as strength, this has been the major weakness of my monk. i concentrated on dex and spd and now he will hit 8-10 times per round, but the damage is less than i would like, by a long shot. i'm now raising it, but it will take until about level 25-27 to unlock powerstrike... i pushed strength in the rogue and she has become the powerhouse btu the other two are definately lacking... if i had to do it over again, i would have had the monk concentrate on dex and split the remaining between spd ans str. i would recommend this party to anyone looking for a challenge, but not the challenge of a solo fairy ninja or god-forbid a solo lizzy bishop! there's a good mix of melee, range, and magic - downside is that there are limited armor/goddies you can use. not for beginners, but fun for those who are looking for a good replay.

10-19-2003, 02:12 AM	#15
sultan Guest Posts: n/a	good summary, KR. it's great to see similar experiences with similar parties to confirm the knowledge base. powerstrike is not strictly necessary, in and of itself, for a melee character to be successful. however, in order to maximise your damage bonus, i would strongly recommend building up strength regardless of whether or not you can max it. in fact, i would recommend building strength as a first priority for a monk, and then your choice of dex or spd, or splitting the points around. dplax - how bout a solo lizzie psionicist? ...or a solo faerie lord? ...or a solo dwarf samurai? wince [ 10-19-2003, 02:20 AM: Message edited by: sultan ]

10-20-2003, 01:47 AM	#17
sultan Guest Posts: n/a	with a faerie, at least you have speed and intelligence going for you. a little powercast, and snake speed with dual faerie sticks, and you've got a chance. dwarves are slow, dumb, and uncoordinated (in wiz 8). and the penalty points by being a samurai will put you far enough behind that you may never get good at anything! maybe a bigger challenge would be dwarf ninja - no buffs in the spellbook and even less armour!

10-25-2003, 05:06 PM	#18
Killer_Rogues Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: October 11, 2003 Location: Virginia Age: 45 Posts: 10	all right - time for another update for those of you who i know have been losing sleep wondering how this party is going. Well, i forget where i left off last, but i'll update you on where we are now. WARNING - THERE MAY BE SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T COMPLETED THE GAME. . . . . . . . . . . . . . well, i despite not wanting to take on NPCs, i decided to go the alliance route. i saved the two captives, quickly teleported out of the rapax camp, and did all the running around and blowing up of the savant's ship as quickly as i could so i could get rid of the two extra XP-takers. I successfully did so and, since this was my first time blowing up the ship, i will say i wish there had been a little cooler graphics on that part. but no matter - it was cool to see the two sides united after years of bitter fighting. Being that i had not bothered to get the destinae dominus from the sea caves, i thought i better head over there and do it. but since i had already done theo whole rapax initiate thing, including the killing of al-seduxes, i was pushing level twenty by the time i got there. so i decided that i should kill marten (again) just for fun. I must say, he didn't put up much of a fight. maybe it's because i have a rogue who is duel-weilding with a light sword and stilleto and a monk who hit 8-9 times per round, but nonetheless it was dissapointing except for the XP i got. I might as well go ahead and describe where my characters are. the rogue has developed nicely into my tank, obliterating anything that even thinks about getting close to me. armed not only with great melee weapons, she also has the siege arbuss and plenty of lightning bolts to help wound those ranged buggers. My monk is still beating things away with his martial arts and his stamina is finally high enough to make it through almost any fight. His magic has come along nicely and can now put up a quality soul shield before any fight. usually i use him for melee fighting and psionic attacks (psionic blast, cerebral hemmorage) at ranged creatures. i finally got the quality bo from the rapax castle, but usually he just uses martial arts. The ninja has been the most difficult to build. his magic is scattered all over, and i could not figure what weapon to give him when projectiles ran out. i experiments with a couple of sais, he had a polearm for a while, and now he is using the cat-o-nine-tails. he is still most effective with the boomerang shurikan and whatever else i put in his off-hand, but things run out quickly. his magic is ok, but certainly not great. i have been working up his earth in order to get a more powerful element shield, and his fire isn't too bad. if i had to do it all over again, i would have thought it through more and determined what would make him most effective... oh well - live and learn. As a group, these guys have great initiative, due to the high speed all of them have. i can easily get up my buffer spells before combat begins, and this makes enemy magic virtually useless except in rare cases where battle go on too long and i forget to recast one of the two. I think that the monk and rogue are definately the most powerful, with the ninja not as powerful simply because i didn't build her well. but with two portal spells, traveling has been fairly easy. the light sword (first time!) has added the necessary firepower, and instant kills definately build up (i expect at least 2-3 per battle, sometimes 4 creatures go down in a round or two). the stealth and reflection still help, but not as much as i wonder around AP ( i placed 2 of the artifacts, just haven't had the time to place the third). Overall, i have really enjoyed this party - the high speed and stealth made even Pee-wee a breeze to kill (i was really hoping for an instant kill, but no such luck). the magic with the hybrids added that aspect of game-play, and by now, money is no problem (just for fun, i switched my rogue to a fighter for a level (level 22 maybe?) and bought all the good armor from ferro - golden breastplate, infinity helm, mantis gloves/boots, played a fighter for a level, then switched back and sold it all back... then gave ferro 100,000 gold just to see what would happen... he said thanks) i am beginning to like small parties and need another small party theme idea for the next round - any suggestions? i have thought about the magic party (mage, psi, alch, priest), or maybe a crusade quest (priest, lord, valk) - i'm open to suggestions. happy gameplaying!

10-25-2003, 10:11 PM	#20
Scatter Symbol of Cyric Join Date: August 17, 2003 Location: Portland Age: 66 Posts: 1,336	Heh, my first Trio was Lord, Bard, Bishop. First Duo was Bard and Bishop.

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