Worth Buying?

[EEWorzelle]

It is amazing to me that those who are less than experienced in this game, who ran into problems and then gave up, would take the time and effort to drop in here from time to time and criticize a great game. The effect of this, when focused at players wondering whether to buy a game or not is to discourage them and deny them the fun. If you don't like a game, fine, but why discourage others when you haven't played it much yourself? Dozens of new players on this and other boards rave about what a wonderful game this is. Lots of those who enjoy the game and finish it, play everything else, MW, NWN, etc., but then keep coming back to Wizardry 8 for more replays.

Actually, you can play continuous mode combat, if you wish, in Wizardry 8.

Wizardry 8 is not an easy game at first, and some get discouraged and give up... occasionally blaming the game for their learning curve. Actually vererans of Wizardry 7 sometimes complain about Wizardry 8 being too easy. Believe me, those veteran players would not be shy about expressing negative opinions about the combat system and they occasionally do so, but usually not in any blanket way. Any system, even an excellent one, can be improved. Playability is where Wizardry 8 consistently gets top marks and where it won it's awards (the new box displays the awards won).

There are valid reasons not to like this game, depending upon your personal preferrences. If you prefer a non-turn-based combat system, yes, Wizardry can do that, and a couple veteran players have specialized in playing Wizardry 8 in that mode. However, if that is the kind of combat you prefer, then there are lots of games, including ones with more sophisticated graphics, that have that. If you prefer an overhead 3D view, the Balder's gate and related games (or Torment or the Fallout series!) are lots of fun. Some don't like the number of puzzles in the game (too many or too few). There are also a couple loose ends at the end of the game (not central to the story, but annoying, nevertheless). The key to strategy in this game is what is called "Expert Skills" but the manual doesn't describe how to get them, and that is a difficiency (again just at first). Some of the boards have tips which explain how those work. Most play the game several times and finish for the first time with their second or third party, that is what many report to be the most fun. Like the Might and Magic games, there is an SF element, and some object to that.

If you like the strategy of freely building a powerful party (rather than being locked into finding it or only having a single character), and if you like coming up with a great party concept and then having the flexibly for designing and developing your characters to create that, then this is the perfect game for you. Every single character type in Wizardry 8 is powerful if developed well, and depending on party composition. I loved the Might and Magic 6-8 games, even though there was much less party composition flexibility, but after building my incredible party of GrandMasters, it was annoying that the regenerated monsters in regions were still as low in level as when they first appeared. It became boring to clear them out multiple times, but I don't really mind too much (W8 is just better) and replay those great Might and Magic games from time to time. Wizardry 8 is a character development strategy game, and that is what it is the very best at. The story is good, well developed, with some interesting twists. The number of bugs are few, and well known. The graphics are good and put together by the design team with love. (In the opening Monestary, just look up!) The replayability and therefore value per dollar for this game is superb.

Fun game!!!

[edited to remove some irrelevant material and some "attitude" that, upon reflection, went a bit too far in a couple places. There is a basis in fact behind all opinions expressed, even when the conclusions are very different]

[ 03-11-2003, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ]

[Desdicado]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by EEWorzelle:
[QB]It is amazing to me that those who are less than experienced in this game, who ran into problems and then gave up, would take the time and effort to drop in here from time to time and criticize a great game. The effect of this, when focused at players wondering whether to buy a game or not is to discourage them and deny them the fun. [QB]

I often look in to see what is happening on boards of games I've played in the past to see what the chat is and I often give my opinions on subjects being discussed.

Just because I didn't like it (in this case), makes my opinion no less valid.

I think any prospective buyer should know the negatives as well as all the positives you have eloquently stated.

I think you would be entitled to criticise someone who just sayed "It sucked" and gave no reason but I gave my opinions on why it sucked, ie combat. I also didn't like the "tunnel" effect in overland travel, ie you are hemmed in on all sides by unscalable mountains except for the narrow channel you have to traverse. Did I mention the combat?.

I appreciate I am in a minority on this board, but it makes my thoughts no less relevant. I wish someone had told me before I wasted £30 and probably 40 hours on this game.

Here are how I rate a few similar titles

Baldurs gate 2 - 92%
Baldurs Gate - 91%
Might and magic 7 - 90%
Might and Magic 6 - 89%
Might and Magic 4 & 5- 87%
Might and Magic 8 - 86%
Might and Magic 9 - 85%
Icewind Dale - 85%
Morrowind - 85%
Wizards and Warriors - 70%
Planescape - 65%
Icewind Dale 2 - 60%
Pool of radiance 2 - 55%
Wizardry 8 - 40%

[ 03-12-2003, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: Desdicado ]

[the mighty stamar]

That is an interesting list. Is that the CRPGs youve played that you feel were similar or most of the recent ones you personally played?

Those are mostly the BG series and the MM series. Wizards and Warriors seems a little more like mm 7-9 to me though I havent played through it yet.

Those are all party based adventure games except morrowind.

What is weird to me is how much better than any of them wizardry 8 seemed to me. The might and magic games were greatly derivitave of the wizardry series, and the engine and content in wizardry 8 is similar but just so much better.

Morrowind does have better graphics definitely.

BG games have a great deal of combat. I remember the first one was really cool back in the day... when I tried to start Icewind dale 2, to be honest it just had far too much extremely dull combat for me.

I didnt play all of those games, but some of them and many different ones. I would give wizardry 8 around 95%, Morrowind maybe 90% , bg1 85%.....mm7 75%.... IWD2 I have to give 60% because I couldnt make it past 20% through I was so disinterested.

But ya honestly in general I would think that anyone who loved MM9, would appreciate wizardry 8...or any might and magic game... as its generally a much higher rated game and certainly has more polish and content. So that is confusing to me.

[ 03-12-2003, 06:18 AM: Message edited by: the mighty stamar ]

[Desdicado]

That's interesting Stamar, maybe it says more about me than it does about the game that I didn't like it!.

I have to admit I am in a small minority here with my dislike of Wiz 8.

My list is really a list of most of the RPGs I've played over the last 10years that have stuck in my mind.

I could have added Dungeon master 1 & 2, the Eye of the beholder games and all the ssi games, ie death knights of Krynn, ah that takes me back !.

I should maybe start a poll in the misc CSRPG section to see what people rate best / worst ?.

[snooch_dawg]

Hee hee hee...

this is fun now, no laughing at how old I am, but here is my list of favorite CRPGS (in no particular order). I base my list on how much of my life these games used up [img]smile.gif[/img]

Legend of Blacksilver (only released on the Amiga)
Demon's Winter
Magic Candle
Pool of Radiance (original)
Wizardry 8
M&M 2
M&M 4
Dungeon Master
The Black Crypt (also amiga only methinks)
Phantasie II (C64 & Apple IIe)
Ultima III
Ultima IV
Legacy of the Ancients (Epyx rocked)
Bard's Tale 1,2,3
Knights of Legend

Wiz 8 is the only modern RPG I have been able to get into. I bought BG after reading the reviews and hated it. I bought MM9, hated it.

So there you go.

Cheers.

[Desdicado]

Ah yes
Pool of Radiance
Curse of the Azure bonds
Tales Silver coast
Champions ok Krynn,
Death Knights of Krynn

All Classics!

Dungeon Master

My first RPG on my old Amiga

The Black Crypt

That was an excellent game, I remember it well.

Ultima IV

All those Ultimas were great !.

Bard's Tale 1,2,3

Also fantastic, I must be as old as you I think.

I actually started playing M&M4 and M&M5 again last night, both classics and about as basic graphics as I can make myslef go to now.

Did you ever play Drakkhen on the amiga?, the sound effects on that blew me away back in 91 or so.

[snooch_dawg]

Yup,

Drakkhen was published by Psygnosis and the sound effects and graphics were incredible for the time, the gameplay was... er... very unique, and it was the first game that i knew of with real time combat similar to balders gate (overhead rts i call it, whereas drakkhen was side on view). BTW its nice to see alot of us "adults" (over 23) are still playing RPG games.

However, just to make this a wizardry 8 related post...

Yet another reason to buy Wiz 8...

I bought the game about 8 months ago now, and have still not had an alchemist, psionic, lord, or ninja in my party. I have also never used a dwarf, a felpurr, a rawulf or a fairie. And i've played the game through a couple times and gotten up to level 10 with numerous parties (the twelve hour party test - monsastary-arnika-trynton) and have yet to experiment with all the different class/race mixtures.

Not to mention that until you get to the higher levels - monks, samuri, bards, gadgeteers etc. really seem to suck... but they achieve a whole new power when they hit the higher levels.

Cheers

[ 03-12-2003, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: snooch_dawg ]

[EEWorzelle]

Desdicado, what is so wierd about this one is that it is almost like having a disagreement with your best friend about something you both love.

Excellent CRPGs are hard to come by, and you are letting this one slip through your fingers. I would say you are only hurting yourself, mostly.

Of course you have the right to post your opinion if you are not rude about it, and you are not.

It is clear that you and I value different aspects of the game (I focus on precise strategy and magic capabilities in and out of battle, in a way that makes phased combat almost essential for my mode of enjoyment). Nevertheless, other than Might and Magic 9 and Wizardry 8, the numbers I would give for the games you list are not too far from yours.

I give Might and Magic 9 very low marks due to decreased (scrunched together) magic capabilities, lack of freedom of movement compared to earlier in the series (primary of which is flying, lack of), the forced use of dexterity for the Ranger character (I now know there it a trick to avoid it), and the restriction in the order of doing certain things in the game, which is unforgiving and less free. These things were more than enough for me to give it very low marks.

Now you might not agree with that opinion (you obviously don't), but you should know I played through the entire Might and Magic 9 game, from beginning to end with two different parties, before finalizing my opinion.

Even so, I did not post with the intent of preventing others from buying the Might and Magic 9 game, but when I posted my opinions they were censored (not Ironworks, another board). I am proud that the Moderator here does not censor yours or other negative opinions about this game if they are concentious (and obviously yours is). Maybe players with other styles would (and obviously do, in your case) enjoy the MM9 game. What if I posted in a "Worth buying?" thread on a MM9 board and said the game is rotten, and for some reason you, not realizing our differences in style, were niave enough to actually listen to me (not likely in your case... but stick with me, I'm on a roll). Then, obviously I would have done you a disservice.

Unlike the MM9 board that censored me, I absolutely believe in your right to post. It is the content and basis of your conclusions about Wizardry 8 that I challenge. While our styles are clearly different, lots of players more in alignment with your style and preferrences (it's hard for me to judge how close) find the combat system in Wizardry 8 fine. A guy named "Ravenshore" on the IGN board is an example (not sure if he is currently posting there, tho). He always plays in continuous mode and has developed lots of strategy for parties using that.

I think you gave up on Wizardry 8 too quickly. Even granting your perfect right to do so, and even if you personally wish to put no more of your time or money into this game, is discouraging people who love CRPGs from buying and playing this one by telling them it is unplayable and the combat system is broken really what you want to do? I would at least encourage to qualify your statements with "I feel..." or "I and several other players I know feel..." LOL

snooch_dawg - wasn't "Magic candle" a great little game? I loved the way you could play different parts of your party on missions in different parts of the world at the same time! I got the sequels but they came out too late and seemed "tedious" compared to other stuff out there by then.

In the Ultimas I liked 5 and 9 the best, but 2 was pretty cool, too. Didn't play 3. I screwed up 4 by stealing from the blind woman to get badly needed magic components on some island (blush). I was never able to recover from it. I guess when it came to virtue, Ultima style, I just didn't measure up. Don't ask me to defend Ultima 9. I can list several reasons I shouldn't have liked it... but I did.

[Note: I changed the name of the player from another board referenced in the above... I gave the wrong one at first.]

[ 03-13-2003, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ]

[Desdicado]

EEWorzelle, First can I say what a great post, I really enjoyed reading it.

You are probably right in that we may well be looking for different things from our games I suspect.

I am really looking for something pretty specific-

1- Open ended (go where you want when you want, (like BG, M&M6 & 7, Morrowind)
2- Fast decisive combat, ie M&M series, Baldurs gate again, Morrowind
3- Fantasy / middle earth type setting, no sci fi, see usual suspects above.
4- Lots of stats, lots of character development / interaction
5- Lots of items
6- Large outdoor areas to explore, see above games again !.

Maybe I was harsh with Wiz 8, I think perhaps it's just not the game for me, others need to make up their own minds as I would hate to deprive anyone of any RPG enjoyment, that's for sure.

[jersey_]

bigblades - if you go to http://www.wizardry8.com/index1.html and click on the downloads button you will get a list of places to download the demo. You could give that a try to see if you enjoy the style of play of Wiz8.

I can vouch for wizfast. It works great. Finished my first game without it, but like the increased speed with it now that I know the game.

[ 03-13-2003, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: jersey_ ]