Felpurr Bishops?

[Gimli]

I think it all depends on how you play, people who take the time to train their skills in the various ways that are out there are alot more likely to max them to 100; if you just play through without stopping to train at all it would be less likely to happen.

[Gimli]

> IMO, snake speed is tremendously overrated. It is definitely NOT a reason to max speed. All it does is give you a tiny boost to initiative (at 100 snake speed, your iniative goes up by 10), but putting points in senses gives you a much better boost to initiative, AND it gives you a number of other bonuses to boot.

Well imagine the choice for a pure caster who you want to be able to cast before any enemy attacks to get up defensive magic (say soul or element shield, something like that). You're going to want to max INT for sure, so then you have to decide which other stat it will be to max early, and let's say the choices are SEN vs SPD. If you max SEN, you get the .2 per point bonus to initiative, and you get bonuses to hit with ranged and melee weapons, and you open up eagle eye. Only the initiative part is of any use to a pure caster - I mean for me it's going to be a bishop who will almost never use a ranged or melee weapon. Now if I max speed, I get the same .2 per point bonus to initiative; I also get .04 per point in AC which is very useful for a caster limited in what armor they can use (also why I don't want a faerie bishop b/c they can use so little armor); plus it opens up snake speed which can then give me more initiative bonus points, over and above what I'd have gotten from senses alone.

The only weak point I see in choosing speed is that it's the one stat that can be radically raised for the whole party with a spell, haste. I think haste adds 75 (?) points of speed to every character and can max them to 125. So if you had 100 senses and put up haste, you'd have a higher inititive bonus than with 100 speed/100 snake speed, or even 125 speed/(via haste)100 snake speed. Haste makes me ignore the speed stat pretty much altogether when I spend points because this one spell takes care of it if you cast it in every fight.

So this brings up one more question: when in a round is initiative determined? Is it dynamic? Let's say I develop one caster who gets 100 speed, 100 snake speed, and he can cast from the Psionic realm and knows haste. A fight breaks out, his initiative is best, he goes first, and he casts haste. No one else has acted yet. After that spell, does the order the characters/monsters go in get recalculated based on the huge leap in speed everyone just got? For example say I have another caster who took the 100 senses but has a 50 speed. Well now he has 100 senses and 125 speed - does he act initiative-wise with those stats in round 1, or does the speed bonus he got from haste not kick in till round 2? If it works in round 1 then if he's the one I want to cast defensive magic he should go next because his inititive score would be extremely high; and the implication would be that you really only need to develop one character with snakespeed who would cast haste on the party. If it doesn't kick in until the next round (when in certain fights it's too late) then I think he's better off having maxed speed and snakespeed. And some other, slower character (for me might be my monk who I'll have go for str/dex first) would cast haste, wouldn't matter when in the round as much because it wouldn't help until round 2.

But I am not sure how inititive gets done, how the order of actions goes when haste is cast - does anyone know??

[otter]

check out Dorkus' Stats threads re Int.
All spells in W8 take effect upon casting. (yes, that means it's still Round 1)
Speed also contributes to the success of Pickpocket, Martial Arts, Lightning Strike, and Crit, only for PP you can't cast Haste.

[Gimli]

Well I think that settles it then for me, just one caster will go for speed and snakespeed, and he'll be designated to cast haste first thing in each fight; I am pretty sure (will have to check this out with another party) that haste cast at level 7 adds 75 points, so I see no reason to raise anyone else's speed over a 50 as that will be where it will max to 125 with haste on.

[el_kalkylus]

That works, except in water. I played two games like this, and depended on my bard's haste spell.

[otter]

Yah, i was just thinking about the Bard for this myself. With a Bard, the Speed would also help with the results of PP, so everything that you need Speed for would be covered.
So, how much Speed do you get from a Bard?

[Gimli]

Nice thing about the Bard is if you raise the speed naturally to 100, there are those bard-only items to go on top of it which could max it to 125, plus then add snakespeed on top of that - he'd be one quick character. This time around though I am going for a Priest over a Bard, we'll see how it works out, I want one character devoted to just being the designated buffer/healer and to occasionally take a whack at monsters with a staff. I think I am going to have:

Flank - Human Monk w/staff
Front - Hobbit Rogue w/dual daggers; RFS w/MA
Flank - Hobbit Ninja->Ranger w/spear
Middle - Rawulf Priest w/staff; Vi w/polearm
Rear - Felpurr Bishop + Elf Bishop

So the Felpurr bishop will be the party's speed guy, he'll go for the Psionic and Alchemist books so he will have Haste. I'll have my "line of stealth" formation and won't bother building speed on anyone except the Felpurr. Think it should be very effective, will see what happens, have a 3-day weekend coming up so they may come into being by thurs night [img]smile.gif[/img]

[otter]

Well, for the first time i have 4 prties going at once, and i suspect the one i just started is going to end up overtaking at least 2 of the others:
Fairy Ninja (can't live without one!)
Felpurr Bard, 1 Nin level, to Fighter at 12
Mook Fighter (start as Rogue)
The extra level is for Stealth.
The Ninja will Alchemize for ton'o'bux and Portal.
As a Bard, the Purr gets 9 points more for Speed to start than as a Bishop, and gets to play the Rousing Drum at the same level as a caster gets Haste. And it works underwater! The Bard needs very few XP to get there compared to the Bishop, and same is true of the Fighter class, which does much more damage to enemies. You just have to crank Vit for the Purr.
Starting the Mook as Rogue gets me the Speed and Dex they don't otherwise have, and there's my stealth level! I forsee serious destruction when i get me one'o'them there Giants' Swords!
(edit)
Well, i just got back from starting, and i changed my mind about the party already, actually started with:
Mook Ranger (yah, living without a FN)
Mook Gadgeteer (once i can make 3X-xbows and 'cast' Eye4Eye, i'm gonna switch to Fighter)
And, of course, the Felpurr Bard-to-Fighter.
Got everything i need, the hardest part will probably be getting Artifacts high enough to ID the stuff i'll be mixing, since nobody will be able to cast ID...
BUT i'll be ready for 2 Giants' Swords!

[ 06-20-2002, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: otter ]

[Gimli]

I don't think any fire based spells work underwater, the rousing drums fail too, am about 95% sure.

[otter]

I'm accepting everyone's silence as seconding Gimli on the drums' not working subaqueously. I wouldn't have thought that Instruments would have Magic Schools and Realms...
Anyway, here's another thing i'm finding worth mentioning:
A Fighter who has been a Bard can play whatever instruments are within the Bard level abilities, EVEN if they're found after the class switch. Casters have to be casters in order to learn new spells!