A question regarding Cursed items.

[Annheiser]

Well I know dual wield will affect adversely to your weapon skills, but still doesn't explain how I hit more often with another weapon compared to Bloodlust. I think it's better off giving it to someone (if you need to) not in the frontline and not meleeing as often, so in the off-chance you do swing, you might be able to rake in the bonus hit... if you hit. My .02 once more.

[Bad Mr. Frosty]

Dude if u want your sam to hit with bloodlust 90% of the time then u must develop his dex attribute
my sam misses about 15% of the time but he used to miss a lot more but i pump up dex every level
he is now at around 86
and sword is at maxx
also dont dual wield like the other person said
i used to have him equip the enchanted wazakashi
now that i gave him a shield instead he does a lot better
thats withought magic or a bow
all Bloodlust baby

he still has a lot more kills than my fighter who has powerstrike and a demonsbane and a demonsting bow

but u gots to be a man to use bloodlust
u cant be a camping whore
no sniping with ur bow
just rush in and fight toe to toe

(Ok this is from a CRPG lover who just got into counter-strike a few months ago and cant believe he not only loves the game, but is kick ass good at it)

[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Bad Mr. Frosty ]

[Annheiser]

??? and ????

D3\/\/d. Did you even read the thread? I'm not telling him to dual Bloodlust. The latter part of the discussion was about my personal experience with my Lord dualling the blade and another weapon.

[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Annheiser ]

[Merulus]

I’m pretty sure that there’s a penalty to hit for berserking, as well as for dual-wielding. Without seeing what kind of character you’ve got, I can’t really comment. But if he’s berserking with Bloodlust while dual-wielding (and if he has a low dexterity or sword skill), then yeah… He won’t be able to hit anything.

Really, Bloodlust works best with a particular type of character. You won’t see great results giving the sword to a fighter or lord, for example. On the other hand, a well-trained rogue or samurai is a force of nature with Bloodlust equipped. Why? Because the extra attacks mean extra chances to critical or backstab.

Let me put it this way…

My very first party contained a lizardman fighter and a felpurr samurai. The lizardman always got the best weapons, best armor, etc (his weapon progression was Demonsbane – Fang – Ivory Blade, if you’re curious)… He was also better trained. He maxed out strength and dexterity, and he had a very high vitality. The felpurr, on the other hand, got whatever armor was left over, and fought using a enchanted wakizashi and Bloodlust for the entire game (not counting the monastery, of course). She was also so badly trained she never managed to max out any stats or skills (hey, I did say this was my first party… I didn’t know what I was doing.)

By the end of the game the felpurr samurai (still using Bloodlust, even at the end) had about 40% more kills than the lizardman.

Right now, I’m running a party with a rawulf lord (sword/mace dual-wield) and a felpurr rogue (sword/dagger dual-wield). The rawulf is using Demonsbane and Diamond Eyes (which is the best off-hand weapon in the game, by the way) and the felpurr is using Bloodlust and a Thieves Dagger. Both are at about level 14 at the moment. The rogue has 350 kills. The next highest kill total in the entire party is about 150 (lord and bishop tied). I’m literally seeing triple damage with virtually every swing. Sometimes (against a KOed creature, for example), the damage is QUINTUPLED. The felpurr rogue, alone, is doing nearly 200 damage every single round, easily. At level 14.

I’m sorry, but you’ll never manage to convince me that the Bloodlust is a bad weapon. There are some characters who shouldn’t be using it, sure, but it’s easily one of the best weapons in the game in the right hands.

[vesselle]

~~merulus~~

gotta agree with you on that one. i developed my bard's rogue skills so that she can toss off a couple of her disabling songs to start, and once the baddies close in, she has her Bloodlust and poison dagger at the ready.

she does some great attacks. [img]smile.gif[/img] and her skills with the blade are improving so fast, it makes me proud, it does. ::wipes her eyes::

the group is only about level 10 or so now, but she currently ranks 3rd in the group for kills and that amount keeps increasing all the time.

i did have my samurai use it at first, but much prefer him to use his dual ability and a bow for longrange. giving Bloodlust to my bard was the best thing i ever did for each of them.


V***V

[Merulus]

quote:

---

i developed my bard's rogue skills so that she can toss off a couple of her disabling songs to start, and once the baddies close in, she has her Bloodlust...

---

…Wow, now I feel stupid. Here I am, telling everyone what great fighters bards make and what a great weapon Bloodlust is, and it never even occurred to me to try giving Bloodlust to a bard.

Hmm… That’s actually an excellent idea. My bard never uses her bow anyway. Maybe once I get my hands of Fang, she’ll be able to inherit Bloodlust.

…or I could try it with my (inevitable) next party. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Annheiser]

Wait a second, heh, please explain to me how Bloodlust on a Bard is any different than say a Lord or Fighter? I understand the point about giving it to Samurais (I don't have one in my current roster but I agree they are the better class to give to) because with every swing, you have the chance to Critical Strike with that class, but Bards can not Critical. So how are they better off?

I'm confused. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Grungepopp]

I guess it comes down to which way you want to look at it. You say you develop your dexterity and scrap the secondary weapon to use Bloodlust. Since Bloodlust gives you an extra attack, you have more chances to crit... But you lose the one attack you're gaining by dropping the secondary weapon. And oh, I develop speed and senses first for my samurai, because those are the controlling attributes for critical hits. So by dropping Bloodlust and keeping my secondary weapon, I have the same amount of attacks. By using something other than Bloodlust, I can actually hit. And by training speed and senses rather than dex and whatever, I theoretically have a higher chance to critical hit. So why should I use it again? :>

And as to the bard using Bloodlust and having that be the reason why s/he has lots of kills, I can only say that there are far more and better ways to make your bard high on the kill list. My bard is currently second in kills (after my ranger!), but I attribute this more to my judicious use of the Piercing Pipes than anything else. In the swamps my bard was popping 5 and 6 frogs at a time. That'll rack up the kills pretty quickly!

Anyway, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, so don't rag on me too bad. I imagine you can build a character to effectively use Bloodlust, but I'd personally rather not suffer the annoyance. To each his/her own though [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Merulus]

quote:

---

Bards can not Critical. So how are they better off?

---

They aren’t. I didn’t say they would be. If I had to choose between giving Bloodlust to my rogue/samurai/whatever, or giving it my bard… The bard would have to do without. [img]smile.gif[/img]

The reason I said giving Bloodlust to a bard was a good idea is because bards (in my groups, anyway) rarely use ranged weapons. They rely on their instruments at range, and so have no need for a bow/sling/whatever (that’s not to say a bard can’t become a very effective shooter if you want her to be, though).

Perhaps I should clarify what I think Bloodlust’s selling points are…

Bloodlust grants its wielder +5 to sword skill, +1 extra swing per attack, +6 initiative, and does 5 – 13 points of berserk (double) damage. Downside? Cursed, and berserking has a penalty to hit.

Demonsbane (the only other “special” sword you can get this early in the game) grants its wielder +1 to hit and initiative, and does 5 – 16 points of ordinary swing and thrust damage (double against demons). The downside is that it can’t be used by very many classes.

In my opinion, Bloodlust outclasses Demonsbane in every way. More damage, better bonuses, wider variety of wielders… Every way. You’d have to miss an awful lot to make up for both the double damage and the extra attacks (not to mention the skill bonus). The only reason not to use Bloodlust is if, like vesselle, using a bow is important to you.

I think you came away with the impression that I meant Bloodlust was only a good weapon in the hands of a rogue or samurai. That’s not what I meant. Maybe I should say:

In the hands of a ranger or gadgeteer, Bloodlust is a very poor weapon.

In the hands of a fighter, Bloodlust is an adequate weapon, though not very impressive.

In the hands of a lord or bard, Bloodlust is a good weapon – especially considering how early you get it in the game.

In the hands of a samurai or rogue - people who can really use all of Bloodlust’s attributes to their fullest, however… Bloodlust becomes one of the best weapons in the game.

Grungepopp:
Was that directed at me, or Bad Mr. Frosty? I always dual-wield Bloodlust. I will say, though, that I think you’ve failed to take three things into account. One, by dropping the secondary weapon you can use a shield, which would significantly improve your samurai’s armor class. Two, dual-wielding has a penalty for most of the game, so your hit percentages with a single Bloodlust would probably be about the same as dual-wielding. Three, Bloodlust does not do ordinary slash and thrust damage, it does doubled berserk damage.

As for Piercing Pipes: I never use them after Arnika. I vastly prefer things like insanity, hex, armormelt, etc… It's really a matter of personal taste.

[Grungepopp]

I've honestly never dropped the second weapon to see the impact dual wielding has on Bloodlust's effectiveness. So I won't even bother to make a judgement there. Moral issues of having a samurai use a shield aside, I can see your point if dual wielding is that badly penalized. All of which just illustrates the point that you can build a character to taste, so if you really want to use Bloodlust, I'm sure you can make a character to do so. But my mind was made up after missing two sequencial 5x attacks (10 total misses) in one battle, not to mention most of my other 2x attacks with Bloodlust. I'm apparently not developing my samurai correctly to use BL, and I accept that fact. I'd like to keep what little of my hair I have left!

As for the bard and piercing Pipes, believe me, I drop an insanity, haste, and/or a hex (magic screen, heal all, you get the picture) in there when given the opportunity. But after the critters are affected by various ailments, I like to kick in with some group direct damage. And when you're talking about 18-24 hp frogs, I just go with Pipes from round 1. Oh, and I like to have my bard shoot her doubleshot once or twice a battle so she can pump up her bow and ranged combat skills.

Peace