LOTR Problem...

[Sigmar]

It's one of the most famous plot-holes of all time.

Stalwart supporters of Tolkien defend him by coming up with something along the lines of "A wizard did it".

I think Tolkien did it intentionally to show that even the best are capable of making the odd mistake.

[Blunderbuss]

A wizard did what?

[Sigmar]

It's a Simpsons reference, a cheap cop-out excuse essentially.

We get a lot of those in the Transformer Community.
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"So why exactly can that massive robot turn into...a freakin' tape cassete player?"

"Umm...subshift, condensing and shifting of parts, subspace...oh, a wizard did it ok?"
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[Bernardo]

I understand Tolkein couldn't cut everything and send the ring by airmail (since he thought the book was TOO SHORT!!!), but he could have specified why the Eagles couldn't bring the ring to mount doom...

I think Galdalf would have known when the nazguls were out on horses and would have also known they really were the only flying stuff Sauron had... so he could have taken the ring, or Frodo and throw both of them in!!! (while the nazguls where in the Shire he could have been on Mount Doom...)

[ 01-10-2005, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: Bernardo ]

[dplax]

Except that when Gandalf found out about Frodo's ring being the one ring he went to see Saruman for advice and then was captured giving time for the opposition. When he escaped Frodo was only a day or two away from Rivendell.

[Bernardo]

well... yes, you're right... but he could have always tried since the nazguls had just been "defeated" by Arwen...

[Bernardo]

And instead what would happen if all the forces of middle earth would have reunited and attaked Mordor before Sauron was ready for war?

[dplax]

Arwen did not defeat the Nazgùl, her father and Gandalf produced the flood in the book. And the flood only took away their horses and their bodies, it did not defeat them. As to the other question: at the end of the Second Age of the World when the Last Alliance of Elves and Men defeated Sauron they thought he was not going to return. Only Elrond knew he was going to be back.

When the Council of the Wise was founded they knew Sauron was still alive, but they did not know where he was. It was between the time of the Hobbit and that of the beginning of LotR that the Council finally attacked the Necromancer of Dol Guldur and it turned out he was Sauron yet he escaped and went to Mordor which had been prepared by his lieutenants.

But let's suppose that Sauron was defeated by all the forces of Middle Earth. Gandalf says in the book that if the ring still survived it would be impossible to destroy Sauron. So if they defeated him in battle he would have just again gone into hiding and schemed his plans somewhere else.

Then again, not even all the "good" forces of Middle Earth combined could have breached the Black Gate by force.

[Thoran]

As I recall, it was DURING the Hobbit that Gandalf and the Council eject Sauron from Mirkwood (it's the reason he leaves Bilbo and the dwarves at the border of Mirkwood).

Regarding the eagles, I don't know if it's a plot hole or simply something Tolkien thought about but never talked about. The only thing I can add that hasn't already been mentioned is that the Eagles crossed into Mordor only AFTER Sauron was killed, and Sauron WAS a powerful being... maybe he had some tricks up his sleeves for dealing with airborn invaders? Maybe he'd have made the mountain erupt to prevent anyone getting close? Seems if the good team had made such a blatant move Sauron would have had some way of countering... he wasn't born yesterday after all.

[ 01-10-2005, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[Bernardo]

well, I guess so, but Gandalf could have played a combo: instead of sending Frodo, loosing many men and almost loosing them all in a battle infront of a gate he could have taken the men, attack Mordor, then taken Frodo and the ring and fool Sauron!!!

Gandalf would have Ruled!!!