Elminster versus Raistlin versus Gandalf the Grey

[dplax]

Originally posted by Rokenn: One thing to remember is that Balrogs in JRR's world are not just demons but gods that have chosen to rebel. As was Sauron and Morgoth. If I recall correctly Sauron and the Balrogs were of an equal order when they served under Morgoth the first Dark Lord.

Sauron and the Balrogs were all maiar, and Sauron was the greatest of the maiar.

[Thoran]

Originally posted by dplax: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rokenn: One thing to remember is that Balrogs in JRR's world are not just demons but gods that have chosen to rebel. As was Sauron and Morgoth. If I recall correctly Sauron and the Balrogs were of an equal order when they served under Morgoth the first Dark Lord.

Sauron and the Balrogs were all maiar, and Sauron was the greatest of the maiar. </font>[/QUOTE]Morgoth was a Valar and perhaps most powerful next to Manwe (sp?), as I recall from the Silmarillion he and Manwe were the only two Valar to create their own races (Orc's and Dwarves) although Orc's I think were a perversion of Elves so you could argue that he didn't actaully create anything... just destroyed the pure Elves.

As I recall (could be faulty but I'm sure will be corrected if so [img]smile.gif[/img] ) Sauron was Morgoth's chief "luitenant" and by far the most powerful of his forces other than Morgoth himself (once Sauron got trained up that is), the Balrog's were Morgoth's Generals and were a challenge in open combat to the most powerful Elves of the First Age (most of which were killed off in various wars, but they were butt kicking powerful). One thing that's interesting about Tolkien is that Elves themselves, although considered just another Race, were VERY powerful, especially the Hero's. It's one of the gripes I've got about the movie, if as many elves had shown up for Helm's Deep as the movie portrays the Uruk's would never have gained the deeping wall, much less the keep. 400 or 500 elves could hold that keep against ANY number of Orc's, especially since the approach to the keep was narrow and would limit the attacking forces that could actually engage to probably less than a thousand at a time.

The one other thing I would note about the Raist/Elminster/Gandalf comparison is that Gandalf's true power came from his ability to "see" what would be needed and guide others to be in the right place at the right time. I saw him more as a General who marshalled his troops and fought when needed. Elminster I seem to recall behaved similarly in some of the stories I've read. Raist was pretty much a hands on guy, not a great leader of men, but a powerful solo player.

Tolkien ROCKS! (even though he gave Balrog's useless wings) [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-03-2004, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[Encard]

You're right about Morgoth, I'm pretty sure... However, I don't think it was Manwe who was the most powerful fot he Valar. The reason the others didn't make their own races (assuming I'm remembering this right) was that none of them had the capability to give them free will. Manwe ended up having to ask the Creator-person (can't remember the name) to give them that. I can't remember the name of the most powrful of the Valar.

Now, this is all assuming my memory's half-decent. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[dplax]

The "Creator-person" is Iluvatar, or with other names The One, Eru. He created the ainu, who later became the valar. Manwe was the most powerful of the valar. That is, if my Tolkien encyclopedia is correct.

[Oblivion437]

It's all in the first chapter of the Silmarillion...

I don't know, I had more trouble with that book than I did with Ulysses.

Considering that the geek factor in this thread has reached pandemic perportions, I'm not afraid to expose a little geekery myself (but I won't bite off chicken heads) in this debate...

However, I'd be way out of my depth, I know at best a part of 1/3 of the necessary information to develop a point of contention...

[Encard]

Hrm... Odd, was sure Manwe wasn't quite the most powerful. Bah, darn bad memory. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Thoran]

You're probably thinking of Iluvatar... as dplax mentioned, Iluvatar wasn't a Valar but maybe Tolkiens world's equivelant of God.

I never got through a complete read of the Silmarillion, but I've listened to it on CD a couple times... MUCH easier going that way.

[Oblivion437]

Try reading the unpared version of James Joyce's Ulysses...I hate plugging books, but that book just takes inaccessible to new heights...