Troy! (will contain spoilers)

[Lady Blue03]

<font color=pink>Achillies never said he loved miss priestess in the movie, he just said 'thank you for bringing me peace in a time of chaos' or whatever. I mean hell, in the beginning of the movie theres two women in his tent...but we notice miss priestess is the only female in the Greek encampment on Troy, only right he should have her...or something

Note-I was wondering about Achillies heel through the whole thing, cause he's supposed to have a weak one, correct? Then BOOM, first shot from Paris is right through the Achillies tendon, lol

I haven't spoken to a person in America who hasn't liked it yet. Give in, kiwi boy, give in </font>

[Bahamut]

LB that was his weakness. I figured that if he got hit in his heel it wouldn't look right on the big screen... haha [img]smile.gif[/img]

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Lady Blue03: <font color=pink>Achillies never said he loved miss priestess in the movie, he just said 'thank you for bringing me peace in a time of chaos' or whatever. I mean hell, in the beginning of the movie theres two women in his tent...but we notice miss priestess is the only female in the Greek encampment on Troy, only right he should have her...or something, </font>

Well, there's a point, if they were going by the Iliad, there would have been many women in the camps. The Greeks were camped there for 10 years. They had innumerable slave women (captured from the various cities, villages, and farming townships in Greece and Troy. They didnt just besiege Troy, they fought against many other towns too) to cook, clean, have sex with, whatever. To insinuate that women were scarce is false. Briseis is special because she is of noble blood. But she is only special in the way a nice trophy car is special. She's fancier than your average beat-up Sedan, but still just a possession, there to serve a certain purpose.
And the love connection was insinuated. He protected her from other men, stayed by her, hell, even talked to her. These are things an ancient homeric hero would not do with a concubine, other than to defend his property and make sure that no other man claims it.

<font color=pink> Note-I was wondering about Achillies heel through the whole thing, cause he's supposed to have a weak one, correct? Then BOOM, first shot from Paris is right through the Achillies tendon, lol </font>

That was accurate. The legends were that Achilles was dipped in the ocean when he was a baby by his mother, the sea-nympth Thetis. She enchanted the waters to make any flesh that was dipped in it impervious to harm. Because she held the baby Achilles by the heel when she dipped him, his heel was still vulnerable, because it had not been dipped in the water. Thus that was how he was ultimately killed, Paris shot him with a poisoned arrow. This lends to the legend that Achilles could not be defeated in single combat by any man in the world, not even Hector.

<font color=pink> I haven't spoken to a person in America who hasn't liked it yet.</font>

My point exactly [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font color=pink> Give in, kiwi boy, give in </font>

NEVER!!!! There is no glory or honour in surrender!

[ 05-16-2004, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[Link]

Actually, Ajax is not killed by Poseidon, Hierophant. In truth, Odysseus and Ajax, being the greedy men that they are, start fighting over the armor and weapons of the late Achilles (after that hero has been slain by a bowshot from Paris in his Achilles-heel). Because Odysseus eventually takes possession of the weaponry and armor, Ajax throws himself in his sword killing himself. No wrath of Poseidon of any sort.

And about Briseis: although the women that are captured in the epos are indeed considered trophies and prizes, and the warriors sure as hell don't fall in love with them, the story is a bit different. Achilles had attacked an ally city of Troy, called Lyrnessus where Briseis was the wife of the king. Achilles slaughtered the entire royal household, including Briseis husband and her three brothers. He then took Briseis with him as his concubine.
Time passed for a while after that. Agamemnon attacked a temple complex of Apollo's and kidnapped a girl called Chryseis, the daughter of the head priest Chryses. The priest was full of grief, and travelled to the Greek encampment with gifts to get his daughter back. Agamemnon, being the haughty man he is, ignored the begging priest and threw him out of the camp keeping his daughter. Chryses then begged to Apollo to help him, and so Apollo fired his plague-arrows in the Greek encampment. A lot of the Greek soldiers were dying and the victory came at stake. Menelaos then went to Agamemnon and begged him to return Chryseis to her father so the curse of Apollo would be lifted. Agamemnon was mad of course, and at first didn't want to comply with the demands Menelaos made to him. Eventually, however, he did comply, but he demanded retribution if he would lose his concubine. Needless to say, he turned to Achilles' concubine Briseis and claimed her. Achilles was so mad because of this that he refused to fight any longer for the cause of the Greek and he remained in his tent from that day on. The war then took a drastic stagnation for the Greek as they didn't have their hero Achilles anymore to back them up and Agamemnon wasn't willing to return Briseis to Achilles.
Achilles' friend Patrocles then came to Achilles and asked the invulnerable hero to lend him his armor, so he could at least act as if Achilles was fighting along with the Greek. Achilles was still angry so he agreed to this plan. Patrocles, clad in Achilles' armor entered the battlefield and was eventually challenged by Hector who killed him in a man-to-man fight. THIS was the reason that Achilles came back to the fight: he mourned for the loss of his very close friend Patrocles and wanted revenge for what Hector had done. That's also the reason that Achilles does such horrible things to Hector's body after he has killed him (dragging him around Troy with a chariot and stuff)

[ 05-16-2004, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: Link ]

[The Hierophant]

There are two Ajax's Link [img]smile.gif[/img]
Since they only mention one Ajax in 'Troy', we can take our pick as to which one dies in which way [img]smile.gif[/img] Either way, neither of them are killed by Hector [img]smile.gif[/img]

And nice summary of the Briseis story by the way, saves me having to do it [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[ 05-16-2004, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

[Faceman]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: There are two Ajax's Link [img]smile.gif[/img] Since they only mention one Ajax in 'Troy', we can take our pick as to which one dies in which way [img]smile.gif[/img] Either way, neither of them are killed by Hector [img]smile.gif[/img] And nice summary of the Briseis story by the way, saves me having to do it [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Actually you cannot argue. The Ajax you're talking about is the "little" Ajax. The "big" Ajax who was in the movie is the one Link is referring to.

Anyway, I really liked the movie and although I'm a big fan of the original Iliad and the Epic Kyklos I did not mind the inconsistencies (like Menelaos dying or having Briseis taken from the temple of Apollo) as they were very well wrought into the movie.
However I felt that after Peter O'Toole's great scene with Brad Pitt (the returning of the body and the end of the actual Iliad) the movie went downhill.
They had Bloom pull a Legolas, killed Agamemmnon (which makes little sense as there's so much story about him afterwards in the myth),...
Instead of giving Aineias, the second most important hero of Troy, only half a line they should have left him out entirely as they did (and I did not mind) with the little Ajax, Kassandra, Chryseis and her father and the gods altogether (which I actually thought quite a good idea).
I liked the personalities the characters were given and really enjoyed the movie up until Paris became Legolas (which IMO was just out-of-character) and they were going for a Hollywood showdown.
Though I first felt that the end had ruined the movie for me looking back I think it wasn't so bad. And for the return of epic movies it certainly outdid the horrid Gladiator.

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Faceman: Actually you cannot argue. The Ajax you're talking about is the "little" Ajax. The "big" Ajax who was in the movie is the one Link is referring to.

Shhhhhh! Dammit Faceman! I almost got away with that!

[Sir Degrader]

I saw Troy. I didn't like it, as I felt that it simplefied the whole book as well as the myths that surround. The only part I DID like was Odysseus. The movie also destroyed any hope of a sequel (probably a good thing), as Helen left with Menalaus, not with Paris, which brings me to my next point. Agamemnon was not a simple 2D villian, he actually had a purpose in the books instead of going around pissing everyone off.

[Lady Blue03]

<font color=pink>I think it's been decided that the movie was not trying to be factual guys [img]tongue.gif[/img]

On another note, I heard Brad actually wanted a naked scene in the movie since apparently he worked really hard to get himself looking like he did, and that he'd never look like that again. I mean he is like 40 or something...sweet </font>

[Bahamut]

I also heard that Brad injured his Achilles' Tendon during the shoot. Ironice since he plays as Achilles...