So you want to design weapons/armor in the toolset?

[nwnrogue]

RTB wrote:

Like everything else, powergaming has it's place. EFU is one of those places.

Absolutely, I'm not suggesting otherwise.

Like I said, by gaming the attack bonuses vs enhancement bonuses on weapons/gloves, I think you can quite naturally enable power finesse/monk builds as well as power ranged/tank builds. And by gaming weapon damage immunity/resistance, you can enable power magic using builds.

[robertthebard]

Originally posted by nwnrogue: To absolutely clarify what I'm talking about, some numbers. I think that these should really be the absolute max and the bosses's AC tailored to what people can hit with them: +9 scythe +9 greatsword or dire mace +10 longsword or battleaxe +6 rapier or kukri (+12 to hit) +7 dagger (+15 to hit) +7 whip (+13 to hit) Note that this ignores the issue of elemental damage completely - I don't have much to say on this except that there should always be at least some mobs with immunity or reduction to some type of elemental damage, and that a weapon shouldn't deal out more than one type of elemental damage. Also, giving "magical" damage shouldn't be allowed as it really reduces the value of using spells and/or magic items. There should be mobs that you just can't easily damage with weapons! This would help magic using classes to find a role and also mean that you might have to think a bit about how to take down a mob instead of always just beating them to a pulp.

Some discussion about some of these stats:

The first three are well covered in EFU at the moment, and there is a +12 kukri in game as well, actually, there is a set of two, although they are the same weapon. There is no need for a +15 dagger, nor for a +13 whip. In the little world I'm working on, the max weapon is out of the box. There are no custom weapons with anything like the stats in EFU, or in the other server I play on. However, taking anything beyond the +12 is causing a char to be more reliant on the weapon than on the build of the char. The build that I had in game last night has a pair of +11 daggers. Excepting the Ancient Dagger of Shadows, that's only +9. She doesn't hit very hard with them, but she does hit. Pushing the attack bonus to +15, raising it four points for the regular daggers she's now using would enable her to hit more, but it's kinda cheap, I guess. I like to think that feat selection, and build have more to do with her success/failure in Undermountain than the weapons she can procure. After all, not every char should be able to walk from top to bottom of the dungeon with no assistance. Nalia won't be very successful in the Proving Grounds, for example, but the Protectors won't like her very much, as they won't be able to do much damage. Makes her a great support char in there.

Edit: Afterthought; what makes more sense would be to balance the dex based weapons in power to what's there for str based. Not like there aren't some good dex potential weapons, such as the Hellfire mace, or the aforementioned kukri, but there are no kamas in game greater than +8, for example.

[ 02-21-2007, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: robertthebard ]

[Greything]

I may have to change my view on Dex based characters.

This is all down to using the Full Plate of the Commander, a strange but very useful piece of armour, with a recent Dex build.

Using maces (what else?) it may not hit as hard as a STR based PC but it does have a similar AB and can hit more often. The AC is surprising. I am not going to be able to resist powergaming with this.

I have to admit now that DEX based builds are very worthwhile without needing any changes in the weaponry available now. The only exception, as Robert has pointed out, are Kamas and possibly gloves. Monks are definitely falling behind in the arms race.

[Greything]

What can I say?

After trying it, Dex is good in the end but you can die a lot getting there.

[robertthebard]

In the store on lvl 12, the main level, there are some +9 dex bracers, team those up with Durnan's Boots, or the Monk Boots on the same level, and presto, instant Full Dex Bonus. Ring of the Bold, and the Storm Giant Str belt, and presto, instant maxed out str, + a bit...I use this as "Standard Kit" for most of my chars. The Ring of Wonderful resistance that shows up in the stores from level 12 deeper is included in that kit as well. Armor, helm, amulet and cloak will change from build to build. If I do a build where I don't really want to wear a hat, I'd use Shadowsilk, since it has trueseeing built in, and the Proving Grounds cloak, of course...

[nwnrogue]

Originally posted by robertthebard: In the store on lvl 12, the main level, there are some +9 dex bracers, team those up with Durnan's Boots, or the Monk Boots on the same level, and presto, instant Full Dex Bonus. Ring of the Bold, and the Storm Giant Str belt, and presto, instant maxed out str, + a bit...I use this as "Standard Kit" for most of my chars. The Ring of Wonderful resistance that shows up in the stores from level 12 deeper is included in that kit as well. Armor, helm, amulet and cloak will change from build to build. If I do a build where I don't really want to wear a hat, I'd use Shadowsilk, since it has trueseeing built in, and the Proving Grounds cloak, of course...

Agreed about bracers, boots & ring of wonderful resistance.

My current main concern about my dexers is getting an item with mind-affecting spells immunity. If you get in a daze, you lose all your dex bonus to AC, and you will be reduced to jelly in short order. You also MUST include a class with Uncanny Dodge (Rogue 3/Barbarian 2/Assassin 2) otherwise you will lose your AC dex bonus against all melee enemies you aren't facing.

[robertthebard]

Ring of the Bold will provide the Mind Spell immunity, I believe. As for Uncanny Dodge, I have quite a few dex builds that don't have it, and I don't seem to have the problem. I do a lot of rogue/assassin based builds, but not all of them are. I rarely use barbarian levels for anything, except Mistress of Pain...I think the idea is to not get surrounded by enemies where that becomes a problem. Not an easy way to do that forthcoming, but killing them before they get close enough to mob you is a good idea...

[nwnrogue]

hm, you're absolutely right about ring of the bold. I just remembered it as having fear immunity, which of course it does. But this is redundant, since if you're immune to mind-affecting you're obviously immune to fear...