Armor Requests

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by robertthebard: This seems kind of frustrating to me: "I want to be able to do w/out dedicating any skill points to it." To me, that reads exactly the same as "I want to be able to use dev crit w/out taking the feats for it." Crafting is no different than picking locks, if you want to be able to do it, dedicate some points to it. I have several very playable chars with enough crafting skills to do what can be done on the server, with weapons, or armor. Some of this stuff has to be put on the actual build. All this asking for something for nothing is really frustrating for me.

Gotta say I find myself agreeing with this. It's part of the whole gameplay experience. If you want to craft, you take skill points in it because your character has to learn the skill! Can't learn to make an omelet without learning how to crack an egg! [img]smile.gif[/img] My characters haven't done this, but my husband has one that does. He enjoys doing the crafting and finding the raw materials to make things or transform things.

[robertthebard]

Yes, crafting costs money. In Fates, it also costs XP. Guess what. All the characters that want the stuff that can be crafted there spend the points in the skills, weapons/armor, and the gold and XP to do it. Do they complain, every minute of every crafting operation they perform. Do they do it anyway, yeah, and with multiple chars. We have crafter rings to, a max of +5, at least, that's the max players can get.

I don't understand how putting a total of 25 points in crafting armor or weapons, as that's about all it really takes, affects your chars playability. Ashina, the "Supermodel" I used for the original crafter thread, is quite playable solo, to lvl 13 anyway. I haven't gotten around to putting her to the test on 14 yet. Daughter of Winter, my crafting cleric is also very playable with the skill points dumped into crafting. Off the top of my head, the only class that doesn't have crafting as a class skill is weapon master. *Shrug* To each their own, I suppose. I'll ride the bus with the party for all the free XP, but I'll also be the one doing the quests, when I can get down to them, so I don't feel bad about that at all. I'll also put points in crafting if I feel the need to craft my armor, after all, if I want it, I should be able to do the work for it.

Not really trying to take a real hard line on this, it's just the way I see it. On Fates, we had the ocasional beggar, who would want somebody else to spend the XP and gold to craft their items for them. It's frustrating to be busily gathering components for the crafting, which are required to add stuff to the armor/weapons, and have somebody else that's too lazy begging you to do it for them. Maybe that's why I think chars should have to "earn" what they get when it comes to crafting.

[Mozenwrathe]

Originally posted by robertthebard: Yes, crafting costs money. In Fates, it also costs XP. Guess what. All the characters that want the stuff that can be crafted there spend the points in the skills, weapons/armor, and the gold and XP to do it. Do they complain, every minute of every crafting operation they perform. Do they do it anyway, yeah, and with multiple chars. We have crafter rings to, a max of +5, at least, that's the max players can get.

One of the main differences between here and say Fates is that Fates is a persistent world. It has an economy in place that such works are necessary AND profitable. Here it isn't. I have no qualms with crafting costing money and XP. My problem is, as always, convenience. I don't feel that for cosmetic differences only I should have to put in points to a skill that I'll never be able to use in a combat situation. Of course, this is coming from the person who has yet to use Parry in a combat situation, though I have it on half of my combat characters. *shrugs a bit* Inside of a world like Fates, I'd be more than happy to earn the money and get the materials needed in order to have someone else make it for me. Sure, they might charge me more than it would cost to make it myself, but it's only fair to them as they'd be losing XP in order to make it. (Though I have seen on various servers XP was gained for successfully crafting items. It wouldn't work here, as those systems were set up for slower gains in levels and not as heavily combat-oriented.)

I don't understand how putting a total of 25 points in crafting armor or weapons, as that's about all it really takes, affects your chars playability. Ashina, the "Supermodel" I used for the original crafter thread, is quite playable solo, to lvl 13 anyway. I haven't gotten around to putting her to the test on 14 yet. Daughter of Winter, my crafting cleric is also very playable with the skill points dumped into crafting. Off the top of my head, the only class that doesn't have crafting as a class skill is weapon master. *Shrug* To each their own, I suppose. I'll ride the bus with the party for all the free XP, but I'll also be the one doing the quests, when I can get down to them, so I don't feel bad about that at all. I'll also put points in crafting if I feel the need to craft my armor, after all, if I want it, I should be able to do the work for it.

My main arguement against this is "where else do I lose?" If I place points in crafting, those are saving throws I could be bolstering (Spellcraft), doddges I could be making (Tumble), or people I could be convincing (Persuade, Intimidation). Save magical items which may or may not turn up to boost those skills, I need to place those in my build in order to survive certain things. That, or I give up on going to various regions with that character (solo, at least) as they won't be as effective. Currently I don't wish to do that. Mayhaps if and when more regions appear, it won't seem to me like such a sacrifice.

Not really trying to take a real hard line on this, it's just the way I see it. On Fates, we had the ocasional beggar, who would want somebody else to spend the XP and gold to craft their items for them. It's frustrating to be busily gathering components for the crafting, which are required to add stuff to the armor/weapons, and have somebody else that's too lazy begging you to do it for them. Maybe that's why I think chars should have to "earn" what they get when it comes to crafting.

Well, I've seen the "earn what you have" arguement in terms of hair extensions and other... modifications. (No details. PG thread here.) If I've made the money, then I've earned it. On Fates, I would personally smack the people who were saying "oh could you do this for me and I give you nothing back for it." To heck with that! That's serious time and money invested in order to get that far. Here it's somewhat different. It's why I would love something that just gave me the power to "go to the mall" and get what I want in the look I wanted.

Think of it like this. If you and I go to a store and get the exact same shoe in the exact same size, we should pay the exact same price. If I want that same shoe in wingtip, and I have the money, I an go to a cobbler and get it altered. I have to pay more, but that's because I want the alterations. I don't need to learn a new trade AND pay more in order to get the alterations done. Now, given the "costs money and costs XP" statement earlier, I wouldn't mind a place that would do it for you at a marked up fee. Why not? I didn't learn the trade myself, so I pay more to have it done for me. I personally would think that would be a fair trade off, except of the work that Ziroc would have to put in.

So right now these are the "options" when it comes to armors with different looks but the exact same properties:

1) Ziroc does nothing and we go on as it is. (Easiest for Ziroc.) We argue the semantics about it all, but we still use the system as it stands now and make characters in droves accordingly.

2) Ziroc includes crafters' rings in the module. (Easiest technically for those who wish to make new looks.) One person has suggested to make them a prize. I like the idea of purchasing them. Could be 1 Mil gold. Could be 4 Mil gold. Could be 1 Mil gold per point in Crafting bonus. They'd sell. And most players would find it worth the cost.

3) Ziroc includes one of those alteration stores in the module somewhere. (Boo. Hiss.) Tons of scripting to look through. Not really worth his time for an option not everyone would use to begin with.

4) Ziroc uses some of those Live Forges to make places where characters get a bonus to their scripting rolls (+15 would be nice) and it costs more (30% to 3x more) to do your remodelling of your items. This would make characters still need to put points into crafting, but you wouldn't need to place as many. This option would also entice people to pick up after themselves and sell it to whichever store they came across. Gerfuril's and perhaps Herthstone's would be the best places to start that project.

[Garnet FalconDance]

Ok, guys. [img]graemlins/erm.gif[/img] All I meant to do was suggest a few alternate sets of armor that would be less "manly" and less resemble a human- (or dwarf-, elf-, etc.) shaped tin can!

It seems to me that a crafting ring that gives a bonus to (Craft Armor) would work. Why not? We have them to help us (Disable Traps), (Search), (Lore), etc. Why not for crafting as well? I'm not suggesting a ring with +25 to (Craft Armor), after all. To create such an item would be the least amount of work short of doing nothing at all for Z.

The other alternative mentioned was a Tailor Shop. I'm a rank amateur at coding, so I'm not sure *exactly* how much work that would be. Maybe Z would find it amusing to create. Heck, maybe the Almighty Choc could be the fashion consultant!

But in the end, even with all the arguing about why - or why not - this should be adjusted, it all comes down to a simple idea of not looking like a freakin' tin can!

[Cloudbringer]

[img]smile.gif[/img] This is an old debate on many NWN sites. Mainly folks with opposing views on the whole idea of 'something for nothing' or crafting versus other uses for skill points.

I tend to fall on the 'if you want it, spend the points' side of the issue, like RTB, kind of on the assumption that if I were actually learning the skills, I'd have to take the time from other things anyway. I guess it's because I like to have at least a modicum of 'what if I were this char?' in my play, even when not fully (or even halfly...is that a word? LOL) roleplaying it out.

I dunno, maybe I'm just used to the way the various armors look, didn't even think of the crafting til Nacht asked if he could experiment on one of my char's armor and made the robe from armor I had. Then I look at some of the things out there and I wonder how much different can it look and still function.. I mean I figure if it's too teeny, cute or 'feminine', how much protection could it have unless it's magical? So I've been contenting myself with changing colors or such.

Not that I'd mind seeing different styles of armor/helmets etc! Just hadn't thought about it much! Bring 'em on! [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] But I dunno about chainmail bikinis... they aren't comfortable at all! LOL!


PS, I'm not entirely sure, but I THINK the whole scripting issues and the accompanying work/headaches that Moz mentions are why there is no shop to do the work of crafting for us.

[ 01-15-2007, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

[robertthebard]

@G You wear your tin can, and like it... :insertmeansmiley here:

The fact is, in order to get the results that Moz is looking for, a + 20 ring or so is exactly what is required. As for making a ring with a crafting bonus, there is no scripting required. You make a ring, and add Skill Bonus; Craft Armor, or Skill Bonus Craft Weapon. No scripting required. You can add both. Garnet, you have been to Fates, and if you'll remember, there are three crafting rings that can be purchased. One is +3, +4, and +5. You have to find them, but someone in game would be glad to tell you where they are, when the server was way populated.

[Garnet FalconDance]

Most of my girls (and guys) have at least a couple points in craftng armor. BUT a ring or reasonable alternative would be nice for the times when they fail the check by a mere 2 or 3 points. That's all.

And whilst I'm thinking of armor, why does bright pink dye on metal armor (base silver when using 'bleach') come out lavender colored? It upset poor Teddi something fierce when she was trying to match the neon pink hood she'd donned and the pretty chainmail (I think it was) came out purple! (And yes, I was using metal dye [img]tongue.gif[/img] )

[Cloudbringer]

Colors can show up differently with our pc's and video cards. But now that you mention it, the pink sometimes does look slightly purple on mine- dunno, but I like purple, so it's all good! LOL

[wellard]

I would like to back up Garnets point here. We have many magic rings or such in the game that give boosts to skills. A ring of +15 to armour or weapon crafting is not an outragous request. To make things better / reward hard work is to make the ring only available at say the level 8 shop. If the ring was made to disapear on transit (like the helball wand) would that really hurt the game?

Though many times i build a character for outright stats I often like to create a more intresting character and being able to change the look to match his/ her avatar is important to that build. Of course when he reaches level 40 he may have enough points to craft but by then the character is finished and it's time to build a new one.

The game is about fun, people amuse themselves by creating not just characters but clothes too [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[robertthebard]

Yeah, I guess it's the difference between "Look what I made", and "Look what this ring made". Personally, I logged one of the girls last night that was the start of the "Crafting Craze" in Undermountain, took her to level 14, and beat up the door guard, and the first wave, all so I could get one belt. She didn't even go after a stone, which was stupid...The point being, she crafted her own armor, w/out rings, and is still very functional. She wanted more feminine armor, so she took the time to learn the skill and did it.