Item-Balancing Poll

[theholyavenger]

Item that is overpowered: Staff of the Magi. Ability to turn invisible when equipped? What this means is that, except for area effect spells, you're completely immune to targeted spells. Even with the spell true seeing casted, you can switch to SOTM just the instant an enemy target a spell towards you for a few seconds of invisibility.

Item that is underpowered: Mace of Disruption +2. After you gone through all the subtlety into deceiving Sir Sarles to accept the fake illithium ores, only to find out that the enchantment of the Mace adds only 1 to the THACO, with all the saves vs death remained the same.

Item(s) that is(are) implemented wrong:The full plate mails that Fire Giants wear in TOB. Would you not be astonished to discover that the same set of plate mail that was once wore by a fire giant also fits your character?

[ 07-21-2003, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: theholyavenger ]

[Xen]

Originally posted by theholyavenger: Item that is overpowered: Staff of the Magi. Ability to turn invisible when equipped? What this means is that, except for area effect spells, you're completely immune to targeted spells. Even with the spell true seeing casted, you can switch to SOTM just the instant an enemy target a spell towards you for a few seconds of invisibility. Item that is underpowered: Mace of Disruption +2. After you gone through all the subtlety into deceiving Sir Sarles to accept the fake illithium ores, only to find out that the enchantment of the Mace adds only 1 to the THACO, with all the saves vs death remained the same. Item(s) that is(are) implemented wrong: The full plate mails that Fire Giants wear in TOB. Would you not be astonished to discover that the same set of plate mail that was once wore by a fire giant also fits your character?

Yes SotM is indeed very overpowerd becuase:

• You force enemy spellcasters to waste thier spells.

I also think that Improved Human flesh is overpowerd to a certain degree.

[Assassin]

Item that is underpowered: Mace of Disruption +2. After you gone through all the subtlety into deceiving Sir Sarles to accept the fake illithium ores, only to find out that the enchantment of the Mace adds only 1 to the THACO, with all the saves vs death remained the same.

And also adds Negative Plane Protection, which is why I use it.

[Klutz]

First of all, I'm not going to discuss "unrealistic", only overpowered and underpowered. That's just way too nebulous territory for me to get into (though I'm sure others will be up to the challenge). I'll just say this: if the item is balanced, I'd rather change the name/backstory than change the item and still try to come up with a balanced version of it.

Underpowered:

Staff of the Woodlands. Near the end of SOA to get a +4 Druid-only staff, when you can buy a vanilla +4 staff at the Adventurer's mart in Chapter 2, and I understand there's a certain very powerful upgradable +4 staff in TOB that is findable quite soon which immediately obsoletes any combat-use you might have for the Staff of the Woodlands. Recommendation: Don't improve its combat abilities, which is pretty much a lost cause. Instead, give it some additional defensive and spellcasting type bonuses... make it sort of a less "broken" Staff of the Magi for Druids. (EX: +1 spell/lvl, -2 to casting time, +2 to saves, +25% elemental resistance.) Keep it Druid only.

Cleric Staff +3: While we're at it, let's make this into a nice spellcasting bonus staff for Clerics instead of a vanilla Staff +3. (EX: +1 spell/lvl for levels 3-5, -1 to casting time, Prot vs Evil 10' radius and negative plane protection while equipped, 2 charges of Heal/day). You'd have to make a tougher encounter for it, but it would be a fine addition to the game.

Sling of Avoreen, Arla's Dragonsbane: Someone mentioned slings were underpowered and that bullets lack variety. I'd suggest these two as sling candidates to be buffed up. Dragonsbane should get a bonus vs dragons... nothing overpowering, say extra +3 to hit, double damage and immunity to fear ala Dragonslayer.

Bone Club +2 / +3 vs undead: Should be a little more interesting considering how you get it, and with clubs being so underpowered in general. Nothing drastic, maybe +3 / +5 vs undead with a chance to slay skeletons and bone golems.

Magic armor / ring of protection interaction. Someone mentioned at one point that the actual 2nd ed AD&D ruling for rings of protection combined with magic was that you would get the AC bonus of whichever is highest, and always get the save bonus of the ring. (So Leather +2 worn with Ring of Protection +1 would still be AC6, no AC bonus from ring, but you'd still get +1 bonus to saves, and if it was a Ring of Protection +3, you'd get AC5 and +3 to saves.) The reason I mention it here is that without this fix, all magic armor in the game is underpowered. Any SOA fighter will tell you the best armor is unenchanted full plate with a Ring/Cloak of Protection +2, and that's just wrong.

Staff Spear: Just needs a little "oomph" to make it more interesting, like the Staff Mace that got bonus damage.

Jhor the Bleeder: OK item, just would be nice for it or some other nice +2 Bastard Sword to be available before Chapter 5. That's also where you get the Blade of Searing +3, and that item is actually obtainable in a nice, well-flavored way that I'd rather leave.

Malakar: Just picking a +2 katana at random and saying that one should get some kind of elemental damage, maybe +1 electrical would make sense for this sword (literally, lightning reflexes).

Hammer of Thunderbolts: Should clearly have electrical damage when you first get it but doesn't. Add +2 or +3 electrical damage, which will make it an excellent quality, but not overpowered, +3 weapon on its own. (Leave Crom Faeyr as is, which has +5 electrical damage.)

The Wave, Equalizer: Agreed with someone who commented that one part of these should be usable on its own. Both final products could stand just a tad bit of beefing up too. (Maybe add free action to Wave, and make Equalizer a +4 with an extra +1 or +2 THACO and damage above its listed bonuses.)

Overpowered:

Staff of Rynn +4. Not sure if you should have access to your first +4 weapon right out of the dungeon (once you scrounge up enough gold). Maybe put it in Trademeet, which would at least require you to set out on (or possibly finish) a quest.

Firetooth +3 Throwing Dagger, Boomerang +2 Throwing Dagger. Neither of these are really gamebreaking, but the 2D4 base damage should probably be corrected to the normal 1D4 for a dagger. Leave the +1 APR for throwing I believe that's standard 2nd edition rules for throwing daggers anyway, and if it does mistakenly grant +1 APR in melee, remove that ability.

Celestial Fury: I'll let others take this.
Flail of Ages: This will be discussed plenty, but I just wanted to make note that I believe its slow ability is actually reduced to 33% in TOB... maybe making that same change in SOA would be adequate. Another suggestion might be to reduce its physical damage to D6+1 instead of D6+4. This would make it similar to Dragon's Breath, which also conveys bonus elemental damage... but at a cost of foregoing the usual bonus physical damage you get.

Staff of the Magi: Remove the invisibility (way too abusable the way the game engine works) and spell trap. The rest would still be plenty powerful (as it should be for the battle you have to fight and the work to get to the battle in the first place) but probably not "broken".

Helm of Glory, Daystar: No wonder nobody plays clerics... Sunray, one of their most potent spells is freely available on not one, but two items that anyone can use!

Mace of Disruption +1 / +2: Actually I think this items is fine to have in the game. I actually like the way it is designed so it is effectively only a Mace +1 / +2 vs non-undead, and can always strike creatures that need +3 / +5 to hit. What I would like is to make it actually a +3 / +5 weapon in all respects, but restrict it to Priests only, since my only real gripe about the weapon is that the upgraded version can make any character immune to level drain, which reduces the value of Priests who can cast Negative Plane Protection. (Which should have longer duration, but that's another topic.)

OK in my opinion:

Azuredge: This to me should be the one anti-undead weapon not restricted to Priests. (Baldurdashed of course.)

Dragonslayer: "Firkragg's joke" would be a better name. This is what I'm going to go after a Dragon with? Actually, pretty well balanced for a +2 weapon. (In answer to one of Six's common thematic complaints about Firkragg's dungeon: Of course a dragon's dungeon is going to have dragonslaying items littered about it... that's what the poor fools who keep trying to kill him come in wearing! Obviously he killed the last people, perhaps the last several people, who came in wearing them... what's to worry about yet another band of hapless adventurers suiting up in that same stuff again?)

Crom Faeyr: You sacrifice a LOT to get this, including having to kill a Dragon for what is otherwise a worthless piece of paper, so I think it's about right given what goes into it.

Carsomyr: Kids, you killed a dragon to get this, and it's Paladin only. If you think it's too easy a fight, make the fight tougher, not the item less: I think this is about what you should get for killing "one of the most powerful creatures in Faerun". Also its magic resistance, while very high for SOA, doesn't stack.

[Pirengle]

Please list whatever items in the game that *YOU* consider to be:

A) Overpowered / cheesy / munchkin

--SHIELD OF BALDURAN: [username] was right. The STR penalty is not enough on this item. It's way too freakin' overpowered, but if you're playing a class that can't cast a spell or drink a potion to counter beholder rays (wizard slayers, anyone?), then the shield becomes a necessary evil, just something to throw on when you're around beholders.
SUGGESTIONS: Double the price, or make it a medium shield (and lose the +1 AC bonus against missile weapons), or make the ray reflection effect only usable once or twice per day.

--DAYSTAR: I think Daystar's perfectly fine on its own. Why does it need to cast spells? (As Klutz put it, replace a cleric?)
SUGGESTION: False Dawn once per day, lose all other spellcasting abilities.

--AMULET OF POWER: Nice powers. Nice powers for free. When does the side of righteousness have it so good?
SUGGESTION: Get this right before Task #3, so you'll have to fight a couple, and appreciate its worth.

B) Underpowered / in need of something to make them more noticed or useful

--ARDULIA'S FALL: This was mentioned already.
SUGGESTION: Have the quest giver hand this item over at the beginning of the quest, have it upgraded to Spell Turning once or twice per day, or maybe even stun on hit with a save bonus for target, and at the end, the quest giver upgrades it to +2/+3.

--CLERIC STAFF/MARTIAL STAFF: I agree with Klutz on the Clerical Staff, but the Martial Staff has the same bonus, and pretty much the same availability.
SUGGESTIONS: Put some sort of healing or protection charge (Armor of Faith?) on the Clerical Staff, and some sort of attack bonus (Improved Haste?) on the Martial Staff.

--RASHAD'S TALON: There's an item that a questgoer can pickpocket near where you can get this, and I think the pickpocketable item is better than this quest reward!
SUGGESTIONS: Have the two items switch places, or combine Rashad's Talon with Ras (4 APR on its own), and still keep it a scimitar.

C) In need of some changes, but nothing that really makes the item drastically weaker or stronger

--SKULLCRUSHER: Gee, wouldn't it have been nice if you had gotten this item BEFORE going on that quest?
SUGGESTIONS: Give it beforehand, or have it drop as a reward.

And my only ToB suggestion...(highlight)

***Why wait for Hindo's Doom when you can buy Yamato from the Tankard Tree? Both are +4 katanas. Solution: Make Hindo's +5, or +4 with a 1% chance of casting Energy Drain on target on every hit if a lucky adventurer also carried around the hand of Dace...***

[Morgeruat]

Originally posted by Klutz: Hammer of Thunderbolts: Should clearly have electrical damage when you first get it but doesn't. Add +2 or +3 electrical damage, which will make it an excellent quality, but not overpowered, +3 weapon on its own. (Leave Crom Faeyr as is, which has +5 electrical damage.)

Actually I like the way it is implemented, I just wish they would keep it more in line with the rules of AD&D 2ed, ie give it a strength requirement of 18/00 and allow it to be thrown with a chance to stun (saving throw allowed of course) in a 15'raduis similar to the actual item, it would make it more in line with the actual PnP game, while giving it some extra Oomph, and it's not a hammer of lightningbolts, it's thunder, the sounds of crashing thunder when it strikes (only when thrown) is what stuns.

[Russ]

The true means of correcting the Flail of Ages, if you can run these multiple files, is to have a chance of spontaneously generating a party of hostile rakshasa... I don't know how the implementation would work, and suspect it'd be a bugger, but it would put it back in its rightful context -- It's overpowered because the rakshasa WANT IT THAT WAY....

[Klutz]

Originally posted by Morgeruat: quote: Originally posted by Klutz: Hammer of Thunderbolts: Should clearly have electrical damage when you first get it but doesn't. Add +2 or +3 electrical damage, which will make it an excellent quality, but not overpowered, +3 weapon on its own. (Leave Crom Faeyr as is, which has +5 electrical damage.)

Actually I like the way it is implemented, I just wish they would keep it more in line with the rules of AD&D 2ed, ie give it a strength requirement of 18/00 and allow it to be thrown with a chance to stun (saving throw allowed of course) in a 15'raduis similar to the actual item, it would make it more in line with the actual PnP game, while giving it some extra Oomph, and it's not a hammer of lightningbolts, it's thunder, the sounds of crashing thunder when it strikes (only when thrown) is what stuns. [/QUOTE]I'm 99% sure that the Hammer of Thunderbolts has an 18 strength requirement to wield. (Not 18/00, however, so it's still off what you said it should be.) That's why I don't mind it rolling 2D4 instead of the normal 1D4+1 damage for a hammer: it's clearly meant to be a big, heavy warhammer.

Fair enough on the thunder vs lightning comment. I was basing the lightning damage off the fact that Crom Faeyr gets the bonus, so it looked to me like the sort of thing that BioWare actually intended to put in to the Hammer of Thunderbolts but was overlooked.

Originally posted by Russ: The true means of correcting the Flail of Ages, if you can run these multiple files, is to have a chance of spontaneously generating a party of hostile rakshasa... I don't know how the implementation would work, and suspect it'd be a bugger, but it would put it back in its rightful context -- It's overpowered because the rakshasa WANT IT THAT WAY....

True. I like that idea... but I'm thinking it should work more like the way the Acid Kensai mod works: after assembling the Flail of Ages there is a single nasty encounter that will happen x days after... probably checking for a minimum character level, as the Rakasha like a good epic battle. Or maybe a series of increasing difficulty Rakasha battles at certain level/time threshholds. You could even be really cheesy and after the last battle have them steal it back (a-la whats-his-name who steals back Drizzt's equipment) and say "OK, we've had enough fun with you, now we're going to go drop it on another plane and try to get some cool battles there. Hope you enjoyed it."

One more thought on the Flail of Ages. A lot of it's "overpoweredness" would be reduced if the slow affect could simply be made non-cumulative.

[SixOfSpades]

The List So Far (plus a few of my own):

Please list whatever items in the game that *YOU* consider to be

A) Overpowered / cheesy / munchkin

• Flail of the Ages
• Celestial Fury
• Silver Sword
• Robe of Vecna
• Crom Faeyr
• Staff of the Magi
• ToB item (Ravager+6)
• Azuredge
• Mace of Disruption
• Human Flesh+5
• Firetooth +3 Throwing Dagger
• Boomerang +2 Throwing Dagger
• Helm of Glory
• Daystar
• Amulet of Power
• Shield of Balduran
• Shield of Reflection

- The CFury's Stun chance could be reduced to only 10-33% of all successful hits, instead of the 100% it has now
- The Save penalty on Azuredge and the MoD could be removed, to allow Undead at least a fighting chance
- Drastically reduced damage on Firetooth and Boomerang, thus greatly easing The Archer's Lament
- The Shield of Reflection could be changed to simply cast Physical Mirror X times per day
- I am unable to think up a way to weaken the Shield of Balduran without changing it entirely....moving this to Section C.

B) Underpowered / in need of something to make them more noticed or useful

• Ardulia's Fall
• Short Sword of Backstabbing
• Kondar (Bastard Sword+1, +3 vs. Shapeshifters)
• Halberd+4, The Wave
• Equalizer
• Mauler's Arm
• Arla's Dragonbane
• Lilarcor
• Staff of the Woodlands
• Clerics' Staff +3
• Martial Staff+3
• Sling of Avoreen
• Bone Club +2 / +3 vs. Undead
• Staff Spear
• Jhor the Bleeder
• Malakar
• Rashad's Talon
• ToB item (Hindo's Doom)
• Spear+1, Halcyon
• Morning Star+2, The Sleeper
• Armor of Deep Night
• ToB item (Carsomyr+6)
• ToB item (Club of Detonation)
• 2-Handed Sword+3, Harbinger

- Ardulia's Fall could be made a +3 weapon, and have its Slow effect neatly exchanged with the Flail of Ages, except that it would now allow a Save. (Whether the Flail's elemental damage would still bypass Magic Resistance--as the Dragon's Breath's does not--is a matter for another discussion.)
- The Short Sword of Backstabbing could raise the wielder's Backstab multiplier by 1. (The Rogue Rebalancing MOD already does this--but I'm not satisfied with the way that it moves the SSoB's location, and gives me *2* of them.)
- In addition to its current powers, the Wave could add Cold damage to each hit, and grant immunity to ADHW (which supposedly does damage by sucking the moisture from your body). The Wave Blade could become an awkward-to-use Axe, with a +4 enchantment and its offensive powers (slays Efreeti, etc.), and the Shaft could become a Staff+1 with its defensive powers (immune to ADHW, etc).
- The Armor of Deep Night is right next to Aeger's Hide+3. AoDN has the same base AC as AH+3, has worse AC Modifiers, has no additional enchantments (in comparison to AH+3's excellent ones, and costs more.
- The Club +2/+3 vs. Undead could be allowed to do double damage against Undead, and cast Repulse Undead X/day.

C) In need of some changes, but nothing that really makes the item drastically weaker or stronger

• Frostreaver
• Staff of the Magi
• Shield of Balduran
• ToB item (Shuruppak's Plate)
• Hammer of Thunderbolts

- Instead of casting Invisibility whenever it's equipped, the Staff could simply cast it 10 times per day, and have its Spell Trap replaced with the normal, 'lite' version.
- Any item "of Balduran" must be something that a Dwarven sea captain would find so useful that it gets named after him. I don't see him fighting Beholders, somwhow. The Shield might grant immunity to Fear, and cast Slow and Haste, each once per day. (Very handy for ship-to-ship skirmishes.)

[True_Moose]

My thoughts for re-balancing some items. This is also taking into account the roleplaying aspects of each weapon. If you read the weapon description, it should make sense.

Eliminate the saving throw bonus for Ardulia's Fall. Maybe also immune to magical slow?

I do like the idea of an extra +1 modifier to the Short Sword of Backstabbing. Perhaps also an extra 1d4 damage when backstabbing? This might make it too powerful, but it is a thought.

Bastard Sword +1/+3 Vs Shapeshifters. Can cast True Sight 1/day, maybe? So you can see the shapeshifter's true form.

The Wave could do extra damage vs. creatures with natural fire attacks (Big Red, etc.) Other than that, I don't really know how much it needs beefing up, really.

You could transformm the Equalizer into more of a balance-keeping weapon. Maybe for every level or hit dice over a certain amount, you get +1 to damage? (ridding the universe of the "extreme" powers")

Mauler's Arm. Give 18 strength, and if the character has more, +1 strength. Immunity to disease (see item description if you want to know why.)

Arla's Dragonsbane. Hmm. Once per day can boost THAC0 by 5, or a bonus vs dragons.

Lilarcor. When hit, target must save vs. spells or go berserk (ala shut up you stupid sword!)

Staff of the Woodlands. Can shapeshift into Earth Elemental 1x per day. Cast Doom upon hit.

Cleric's staff. Adds +1 wis, +1 spell for levels 1-3.

What exactly is the Martial Staff +3? If it's the base quarterstaff, no changes really needed.

Sling of Arvoreen. Cast Bless once a day. Other than that...not much.

The Armour of Deep Night could have bonuses to hide in shadows, or maybe negate any armor penalties to thieving/stealth skills.

Maybe the Shield of Balduran could have more of a spell trap like effect, absorbing the initial beholder rays, but thereafter needing a rest (once/day type thing) or make it a castable spell with the shield? Although I do like your suggestion, Six, but how many pirates and sailors have you seen with shields anyway. More likely a trophy of a past conquest.

More to come...