Cheesy Items and spells?

[Olorin]

The shield of reflection can be used in a cheesy manner, although at most points in the game, it only makes easy fights easier (like the pirates, orc archer ambush, or the sewer tollkeepers)

It's really bad when you intentionally raise your AC so that enemy archers can hit you with the shield on.

[Pirengle]

I consider items and spells to be cheesy when the method of obtaining them is too easy compared to the item's abilities.

The Shield of Balduran tops the list. On a lark, I sent a party member out to clear out some Beholders wearing this shield and almost nothing else. The only problem he had? He got Mazed by one. Kinda weird to see all those fatal rays bouncing around a nearly naked Anomen.

::chuckles softly as IronWorkers around the globe shudder at the mental image::

Another item of cheese is the Celestial Fury. This is the kind of thing you'd expect to find in a major battle with scary baddies, not some wannabe-Ronin punk hanging out with the Slave Lords. He's probably the guy who runs out to the McDonatus for Happy Meals on Sion's orders. ("What?! No KETCHUP?!" Sion: casts PFE/Gate)

I recently found the upgraded Hallowed Redeemer and wanted to see if it was an equal to Carsomyr. They make good weapons...as long as you're Keldorn...who's an Inquisitor...

(Keldorn + Anomen + Mazzy + Cernd + Yoshimo/Immy/ToB NPC + PC thief/mage = Anyone watch the Spam skit from Monty Python's Flying Circus? I can hear the Vikings chanting in the background now...spam spam spam spam, spam spam spam spam, lovely spam, wonderful spam...)

I'm sure a lot of the Improved Items mod was put together for ToB use, but I think that many of the recipes are too cheap. (Kitthix ingredients, anyone?)

I'm not even going into fleets of Mordenkaiden's Swords, Simulacra, or presetting 20+ traps. I'm already doing one big project on my favorite pasttime.

But you never see people complain about how cheesy the Ring of Gaxx is, or the Staff of the Magi. The greatness makes up for the difficulty. I just don't see that in a lot of other things.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Rataxes: Well it is in just those situations that it makes things too easy, just like The Other Shield is only cheesy when you face Beholders. Renders should-be-tough encounters like Improved Sahuagin and Illasera pretty much harmless don't you think? [img]smile.gif[/img]

The Improved Sahuagin are still a walk in the park, IMHO, especially if you want to compare them to the Improved Beholders. There are many alternatives to deal with massive missile bombardment, but options are pretty limited versus the Beholders.

I never had any problems with Improved Illasera, and with a party... she is a total pushover. The reason why the shield came into play in Amkerathan(sp?) is because there were literally dozens of proficient archers shooting relentlessly at you. It was equip the shield or become the Bhaalspawn of Pincushions.

So the difference is... short of extraordinary circumstances, the Shield of Reflection is rarely needed, and situations do not usually become dire if you lack it. The Shield of Balduran on the other hand, is not so.

[Leslie]

Shield of reflection is great in the final TOB battle - there is another one who uses ranged attack and also some summons with a very nasty ranged attack.

But I also used it (for the first time) at the very beginning of the game. Remember Beastmaster with a Tuigan - heh, he comitted suicide.

And how about using it against improved Golems ?
Can you Improve improve them too - Mr. Weimer ?

About improved Sauhagin - in the lastest version of Tactics Mod they DO NOT fire at you - they fight with their spears and they have great THAC0.
(they hit me on a roll of 9, my AC was around -11 - calculate yourself ...)

Very cool - Mr. Weimer !
Of course my R/C had ironskins but it would be a different story fot someone else.

Ring of Gaxx - Good one Pirengle!! That's a powerful ring. Mace of D..?? Sure is a powerful weapon. Managed to kill all the liches (SoA + ToB) pretty fast in my last game. 1 lich managed to cast 1 spell. That was all.

I guess this is a never ending discussion.

I use the items I find in the game. I'm not that good at RPGs so a few "nice" items aren't gonna spoil my game.

[Assassin]

Actually, SoR = Physical Mirror, when you think about it. It's just that Physical Mirror can be dispelled...

[Rataxes]

The Improved Sahuagin are still a walk in the park, IMHO, especially if you want to compare them to the Improved Beholders. There are many alternatives to deal with massive missile bombardment, but options are pretty limited versus the Beholders.

Well I had never ever used the Shield prior to this NRS project, and my current strategy against them still doesn't depend on it, so there are obviously a few viable ways to deal with them. Besides using SI and Spell Shield to gain immunity to most of their attacks, you can also use Mislead to nearly render them harmless, since as frighteningly fast as their reactions are, they're still not quick enough to pierce Mislead. Hit'n'Run'n'Hide with a ranged weapon also works well. With a party, you can simply use Imp Haste on 3-4 Fighters, cast Mass Invisibility, walk in with your entire party, ambush them and attempt to kill them before any major damage can be caused, worked for me a few dozen times when I played with a party.

Shield of Balduran is of course more powerful than the Reflection Shield since the enemies it counters are so much more dangerous, but it doesn't offer nearly the same protection against Beholders as the Reflection Shield does against ranged attackers. Improved Beholders and Gauths will simply stop shooting at you if they notice their rays bouncing back at them, and instead engage in melee. So you cant use the Shield to kill them or disable them, and they are actually quite scary in melee unless your lone fighter can manage at least -15 AC and negative Saves, without protection spells, which he probably wont have in the early to middle stages of the game, thus they remain a threat even with the Shield equipped. Spellcasting isn't really an option either since their Anti-Magic Rays remain as potent as ever even with the shield equipped.

The Reflection shield however, renders you completely invulnerable to ranged attackers. It's not just that Imp Sahuagin or Illasera becomes easy with it equipped. No, it's that you could let your 3-year old sister take control of your character, remaining calm knowing that there's no possible way she can be killed with that shield equipped in the underwater city. Of course there's a remote possibility, but you catch my drift? Using the Reflection shield against ranged attackers makes you immortal, invulnerable, god-like, divine, whatever you prefer. The Shield of Balduran doesn't quite put you in the same position against Beholders.

[ 04-23-2003, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: Rataxes ]

[Rataxes]

Originally posted by Assassin: Actually, SoR = Physical Mirror, when you think about it. It's just that Physical Mirror can be dispelled...

Physical Mirror has a pathetic duration as well

[Dundee Slaytern]

Only because nobody has bothered to script an improved script for the enemy archers. It is unfair to compare them to the improved beholders so nonchalantly when the beholders received a custom script to specifically handle the problem of the Shield of Balduran.

Prior to the Improved Beholders Mod, the Shield of Balduran did make you for all purposes, invulnerable to Beholders.

The alternative tactics you suggested are very specific and very limited compared to the various alternatives that you can deploy against general ranged attackers such as Stoneskins, Ironskins, PfNormal Missiles, Physical Mirror, Mirror Image, Low AC, Missle Damage Resistance, Mantle spells, Invisibility, Stealth, etc... ...

Without these shields, mass archers still do not instill fear. Mass Beholders on the other hand... will. It generally speaks for itself.

[Rataxes]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: The alternative tactics you suggested are very specific and very limited compared to the various alternatives that you can deploy against general ranged attackers such as Stoneskins, Ironskins, PfNormal Missiles, Physical Mirror, Mirror Image, Low AC, Missle Damage Resistance, Mantle spells, Invisibility, Stealth, etc... ...

Ok a few more, PfM scrolls, High Magic Resistance, Stacked AoE damage spells, MD Resistance + Low Saves, Globe of Invulnerability against Gauths.

All the following are good counters and work against all Beholders (except the last one), how much more general can you get

Without these shields, mass archers still do not instill fear. Mass Beholders on the other hand... will. It generally speaks for itself.

Oh I don't know, Imp Sahuagin are very lethal if you get close to them without PfMW. I agree that Beholders are generally more dangerous though.