The Su- er... Equaliser [5th Edition]

[Alson]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: quote: Originally posted by Alson: Damn you Jim! Damn you! [img]graemlins/crying.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

What I find amusing is that halfway during our debates, Jim will enter and announce new facts that render both of us wrong. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]Yes, i thought about it, too.

Although being the reviewer of a book is always easier than being its writer... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

How is it not fair? Foebane remained constant throughout all three combinations. If you ask me to remove the +6 damage from all three, the average damage will still balance out, and the Equaliser will be made to look even worse.

It's not fair because it gives Belm a great advantage.
The more damage Foebane does, the more shining Belm is - that's why FoA+5 and Belm is such a good combo.

The jury will now be horrified. Cheers. [img]smile.gif[/img]

But there are more evidents, your honor!
Try it out without Foebane's +6 bonus, and with GWW.

I would add 23 STR here, but that would be too mean... Right?

[Jim]

Sorry guys Didn't want to spoil the party

Your comment about revisiting the backstab Dundee, I think using the Equiliser in the off hand, whilst planting a critical septuple grandmastery backstab whilst wearing the GoES/WE using Hindo's Doom +4 will rival that of the SoTR+6!

Assuming 25 STR
Grandmastery with Katanas (patched)
GoES/WE
Hindos Doom +4
Equiliser (offhand)
lawful good/evil or chaotic good/evil opponent
Unarmed/missile equipped opponent....

((((1D10+4)+5+2+6+4)*7)+14)*2=462 damage! Hmmm, can't remember if that beats the staff, will have to dig that post out and have a look....

[EDIT]WE HAVE A TIE! The Fighter->Assassin with the SoTR+6 also hits for 462 damage. I'll ponder what other cool things can be done with this weapon....well done to Alson BTW for realising the dual wielding damage with this weapon (still not got round to replying to your thread, although I intend to someday!), although I've not had time to test this yet. [/EDIT]

[ 11-26-2002, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Jim ]

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Alson: [QB]It's not fair because it gives Belm a great advantage. The more damage Foebane does, the more shining Belm is - that's why FoA+5 and Belm is such a good combo.

Okay, I removed the +6 damage bonus and guess what? The Equaliser still lost. I said it once, and I will say it again. The crippling of the off-hand is what works against the Equaliser. So unless you plan to put a Dagger +1 in the main-hand, it is wiser to put a better weapon in the off-hand.

But there are more evidents, your honor! Try it out without Foebane's +6 bonus, and with GWW. I would add 23 STR here, but that would be too mean... Right?

GWW? The results will be the same. Foebane + Crom Faeyr have the exact same amount of attacks as Foebane + Equaliser. The only loser will be Foebane + Belm, since that is the only combination that benefits from additional attacks.

Increasing the STR will do nothing, as that benefits both the off-hand and the main-hand.

[Alson]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: GWW? The results will be the same. Foebane + Crom Faeyr have the exact same amount of attacks as Foebane + Equaliser. The only loser will be Foebane + Belm, since that is the only combination that benefits from additional attacks.

I'm pretty sure that the results won't be the same.
Maybe the Main Hand/Off Hand attacks ratio will be the same, but the overall, Main Hand will do more damage - thus emphasizing E's biggest (and only) advantage.
Well, not only, but we're talking damage here. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Increasing the STR will do nothing, as that benefits both the off-hand and the main-hand.

That's not true.
Since mathematics is your language, you should know that 23 STR * (Foebane and Equalizer) > 22 STR * (Foebane and Equalizer)... Right? [img]tongue.gif[/img]
On the other hand, the Foebane + Crom combo will not earn nothing from increasing the STR to 23...

[ 11-27-2002, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Alson ]

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Alson: I'm pretty sure that the results won't be the same. Maybe the Main Hand/Off Hand attacks ratio will be the same, but the overall, Main Hand will do more damage - thus emphasizing E's biggest (and only) advantage. Well, not only, but we're talking damage here. [img]smile.gif[/img]

The ratio between main-hand and off-hand is 2:1

3 ApR? 2 MH, 1 OH ->
6 ApR? 4 MH, 2 OH

See where I am going with this? The ratio is the same.

That's not true. Since mathematics is your language, you should know that 23 STR * (Foebane and Equalizer) > 22 STR * (Foebane and Equalizer)... Right? [img]tongue.gif[/img] On the other hand, the Foebane + Crom combo will not earn nothing from increasing the STR to 23...

Ah, I see what you mean now. I will see what will happen then.

[ 11-28-2002, 01:42 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

[Dundee Slaytern]

Tralalalala, the Foebane + Equaliser pair still lost to the Foebane + Crom Faeyr all the way up till STR 24.

It only beats them at STR 25, but that is to be expected, since the STR 25 is what gives the Crom Faeyr the edge. If you want to base on this argument that the Equaliser is a better off-hand weapon, I will want to declare a mistrial and use the Purifier in the off-hand.

Besides... you have to REALLY cheese to get a natural stat of STR 25.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Ah... invoking Alson's Lore of the Equaliser, I deduced that the Purifier might work in the same way, and guess what? It does.

Insert evil laughter.

I just added a potential +5 damage to the Purifier + DoE combo.

[Alson]

General Alson stared at the battlefield. He was running out of ideas.
His platoon was slaughtered by Dundee's battalion.
For a second, he saw a glimpse of hope - but Jim's artillery took care of that.
Dundee's soldiers are well trained and well equipped - while his privates can barely hold a Musket.
Thoughts running through his head, plans rose and quickly dismissed, Alson was about to raise the white flag.
But then it came to him.
Generals' school, Lesson 1, Rule 1: Hit him where it hurts. Aim to the head.
Alson's eyed scanned the battlefield, looking for the key. It was a matter of seconds before he saw it. Dundee's tactic was based upon one major consensus - the ApR ration of the Main Hand/Off Hand was 2:1.
How could i've been so blind?!, he thought.
Alson quickly reloaded his AK-47 ( [img]tongue.gif[/img] ), aimed to the Dundee's Lieutenant who was in charge of the ApR handling, and squeezed the trigger.
Head Shot.

The rest, as they say, is history... [img]smile.gif[/img]

After this little (not boring, hopefully [img]smile.gif[/img] ) introduction is over, allow to go to the point.
Your whole calculations are based upon the assumption that the ApR ration of the Main Hand/Off Hand is 2/1. Unfortunately (or should i say, luckily? [img]tongue.gif[/img] ), that is not the case.
The Off Hand will always be the last strike of the round.
If you have 2 ApR, the Main Hand will strike once and the Off Hand will strike once.
If you have 3 ApR, the Main Hand will strike twice and the Off Hand will strike once.
If you have 4 ApR, the Main Hand will strike three times and the Off Hand will strike once.
If you have 5 ApR, the Main Hand will strike four times and the Off Hand will strike once.

If you are (Improved) Hasted, the sequence will be the same, but doubled.
For example, if you had four attacks normally, a round will look like this:
1st strike: Main Hand
2nd strike: Main Hand
3rd strike: Main Hand
4th strike: Off Hand

with Improved Haste, it'll look like this:
1st strike: Main Hand
2nd strike: Main Hand
3rd strike: Main Hand
4th strike: Off Hand
5th strike: Main Hand
6th strike: Main Hand
7th strike: Main Hand
8th strike: Off Hand

A bit of trivia - Greater Whirlwind sets your ApR to 5, and then Improved Haste you for 1 round.

I've tested this matter through and through - but you can test if you want to see it for yourself. I even took a few screenshots - just tell me if you want to see them.
This should be enough for the Equalizer to beat Crom, i'm quite sure.

Read and weep Equaliser bashers! [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

Thus my verdict - with a good ApR rate, the Equalizer is a good Off Hand weapon - in league with Crom, Belm, DoE, etc...

Cheers. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-29-2002, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Alson ]

[Alson]

Originally posted by Jim: [EDIT]WE HAVE A TIE! The Fighter->Assassin with the SoTR+6 also hits for 462 damage. I'll ponder what other cool things can be done with this weapon....well done to Alson BTW for realising the dual wielding damage with this weapon (still not got round to replying to your thread, although I intend to someday!), although I've not had time to test this yet. [/EDIT]

Thanks. [img]smile.gif[/img]

How about using Angurvadal +5 instead of Hindo's Doom +4? Same average damage, but, wierd as it may sound, the +1D4 Fire damage will give it the cutting edge! [img]smile.gif[/img]
What do you think?

[Dundee Slaytern]

Does it work that way? That will be odd. I will have to test it out when I get back home.

As for your alternative to the Hindo's Doom, not so good.

Angurvadal +5 is 1d8 +5, +1d4 fire damage

Hindo's Doom is 1d10 +4

Now... Angurvadal +5 has 13 physical damage, compared to Hindo's Doom's 14. An Assassin has a backstab multiplier of x7, so the Hindo's Doom gets 7 damage for every single physical damage point it has. This is 3 more than the fire damage by Angurvadal +5. Even a normal Thief gets one more point of damage because a Thief's backstab multiplier is x5.

This is why we need the most physically damaging thief weapon for a backstab.