Perhaps Bush' Axis of Evil Speach did some good!

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: I just noted that the duo was interesting. Youngest/Oldest Presidents, Democrat/Republican. That's all. I will admit that I don't think Reagan engineered the economic breakdown of the USSR so much as it just happened. No doubt there is a definite causal connection between the mounting costs of the cold war and the USSR's loss of that "war," but the intent to cause that result is tenuous. I didn't mean he himself personally thought up how to do it, he ok'd the strategy as commander in chief...and he MOST CERTAINLY DID approve the projects toward that end. There is a lot of documentation trhat has been released about star wars and the massive military build up that was geared to stress the Soviets to their breaking point to try and keep up. As for taxes - some have hypothesized that Reagan's biggest economic mistake was cutting corporate taxes. Across-the-board can have many meanings, you see. Now, you may counter that corps. deserve tax breaks too. Theoretically, that's true. To the extent an "imagined" person (a corporation) has rights. But, the problem is much more complex than the theory when you go cutting corporate taxes wholesale. It's too big to get into, though. Reagan didn't even go original there, he basicly lifted JFK's tax plan and used it to do exactly what it did for JFK...which was stimulate economic prosperity....for everyone...but I do NOT want this to go that far off topic to discuss trickle down economics (or voodoo if you hate the man). As for none of the USA's attempts to get Castro ever harming a 13-yr-old girl, I would point out that you don't know that. Moreover, we are a nation that fights its fights with "combined arms" these days - i.e. BOMBS. There is absolutely no doubt that innocent civilians get killed - plus, you have the "friendly fire" concern that always is involved in combined arms (since their inception in Vietnam). Don't get me wrong - I *want* our covert ops guys to be the nastiest MF's in the world, as fear is the next best thing to love in international relations, and I think attempting to execute Castro was not such a bad idea at the time. I'm just saying that this North Korea thing is not likely a unique revelation of what happens between nations and nationals. Actually I DO know that. All of the CIA attempts on Castro in the late 50's and 60's have been declassified and are well documented. Most of the attempts were really stupid, like putting arsenic in his foot powder..... As for your assessment of "collateral damage" All I can say is that no other country in the world spends more on technology to cut down the number of accidental injuries nor any other country that puts its own military in more danger for the sake of reducing casualties...I personally have over a dozen friends who are now dead, because there were missions that had to be done in far more dangerous manners than was optimal...to avoid civilian casualties. Our country has the moral high ground on that issue. Not only that, when we do cause civilian casulaties guess who goes in and does whatever is possible to repair said damage? As for your opinions being yours and only yours and yours alone: I submit to you that I respect and do not attack your opinions, and that if I was percieved as doing so I apologize. Discourse is meaningful, less it is useless. I don't read and reply to posts just to extol my view. Rather, I'm constantly attempting to learn. Nope no apology needed, I just wanted to make sure that my opinions were well seperated from any facts that I might put out there. You seem to have a rather balanced view point (in my opinion) just that I think you might be short on information regarding military ops and our national policies. You would be surprised I think at just how tied the hands of our covert op guys have been ever since Jimmy Carter. One thing Reagan never did that I really wished he had...was to reverse that executive order mandating that we not deal with "disreputable" people for our intelligence. Every year the US miltary looses several people due to the concerns for keeping civilians safe. These deaths hardly ever make the front pages of the news since they are usually over seas, or out at sea, about the only time you hear about it is if we loose a $30 million dollar jet because of it. As I said earlier I am not naive enough to think any government is lilly white when it comes to bad deeds, I just know the efforts we put into keeping "innocents" from getting hurt. You are an ok guy even if you do support the kyoto stuff

[ 09-18-2002, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[skywalker]

Originally posted by MagiK: As my friends in the north say...Ayup!

Hmm...I've never said "Ayup" before! And I've lived up north all my life.

Mark

[ 09-18-2002, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: skywalker ]

[norompanlasolas]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Reagan and Kennedy, Magik? That's an odd duo for sure. 5 by my count, before Kennedy called them off. not one of which harmed any surrounding civilians or 13 year old little girls. And the UK and the USA never mounted a campaign to just abduct innocent civilians and "make them disappear" at least not that was ever revealed. (there are stories of inhumane treatment of mental patients and so called "retarded people" but that is a differnt story and was not conducted with the knowledge of the leaders of the government)

[/QUOTE]eehrmmm... can you say nicaragua? can you say chile? can you say argentina? can you say kissinger?

[quote]Originally posted by norompanlasolas:

Originally posted by MagiK: [qb] eehrmmm... can you say nicaragua? can you say chile? can you say argentina? can you say kissinger?

Last I looked all those countries still exist, what is the point about them? what exacttly is wrong there that is all because of the USA and Kissenger...what did he do to them?

I will grant you that the USA helped the UK kick the crap out of Argentina in the little Falklands thing but we are allies and it was to be expected.

Lets see Argentina...isn't that another name for "old Nazi Retiment Community"?

Are you arguing that the US should have no involvement anywhere but within its own borders? No matter what the "global" implications?

You do recall that at the time there was a major conflict going on (while Kissenger was relevant I mean) called the cold war, yeah both the superpowers did some rotten things but, at the time there was a real threat of Global Nuclear Warfare which would have extinguisehed every life on the planet...I say give the guy a break. I also do not recall the UN calling for Kissengers arrest...if he was so horrible how come no one is calling for his head? Will he be hauled in front of the world court?

All honest questions up there. Looking forward to the responses.

[norompanlasolas]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by norompanlasolas: Originally posted by MagiK: [qb] eehrmmm... can you say nicaragua? can you say chile? can you say argentina? can you say kissinger? Last I looked all those countries still exist, what is the point about them? what exacttly is wrong there that is all because of the USA and Kissenger...what did he do to them? I will grant you that the USA helped the UK kick the crap out of Argentina in the little Falklands thing but we are allies and it was to be expected. Lets see Argentina...isn't that another name for "old Nazi Retiment Community"? Are you arguing that the US should have no involvement anywhere but within its own borders? No matter what the "global" implications? You do recall that at the time there was a major conflict going on (while Kissenger was relevant I mean) called the cold war, yeah both the superpowers did some rotten things but, at the time there was a real threat of Global Nuclear Warfare which would have extinguisehed every life on the planet...I say give the guy a break. I also do not recall the UN calling for Kissengers arrest...if he was so horrible how come no one is calling for his head? Will he be hauled in front of the world court? All honest questions up there. Looking forward to the responses.

ok, ill try to explain... in chile there was a coup d'etat against legitimate president salvador allende by the right wing military lead by pinochet, endorsed, supported and encouraged by the us "intelligentzia" lead by none other than henry kissinger. 20,000 people dissapeared in chile and were hunted and killed for their political beliefs. and i repeat, it was a legitimate ellected democratic government.

in argentina more of the same. democratic elected peronist govt was overthrowed by the military and more than 30,000 were killed until 1982, when thanks to the defeat in the malvinas war, the military lost all power and had to concede the govt. and by the way, regarding the malvinas war and england "kicking the crap out". let me tell you a few facts. a completely unprepared argentinian militia went to occupy the island and nevertheless managed to sink several english ships, resist in the ground and, according to a recent books by key commanders of the british military, they (the english) would have defeated if it werent for 3 facts: the us support in regards of intelligence, the sinking of the ship "general belgrano" killing 2,000 sailors approved by thatcher, a coward and unlawful act since it was well outside the war zone and not participating in it (war has rules, amazingly), and that in the end the argentinian leadership and people wanted out of there because of the desprestige (sp?) the govt had. check out those books, they are pretty much saying that if the war had continued for a couple more weeks, the english would have had to turn back. not talking of patritism here, just plain facts.

and if kissinger was croatian or serb or irakian he would have charged with war crimes and would be in the hague facing the court right now. you say that the un hasnt called for kissingers arrest, thats a pretty naive point of view considering that the us is part of the security council. so the chinese have not committed war crimes because none of their generals or top commands have not been arrested? or the russians? yeah right.

and regarding the nazi retirement community jab. argentina did welcome a fair share of nazis. but so did the us and russia, that fought fiercely between them in recruiting their finest scientists and "brains". the only difference is that it received less publicity.

[skywalker]

Lets see Argentina...isn't that another name for "old Nazi Retiment Community"?

That's a bit of a nasty comment don't you think, Magic?

Mark

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by norompanlasolas: ....and regarding the nazi retirement community jab. argentina did welcome a fair share of nazis. but so did the us and russia, that fought fiercely between them in recruiting their finest scientists and "brains". the only difference is that it received less publicity.[/QB]

Actually, there is one other important difference you've overlooked, norompanlasolas -

The scientists and "brains" weren't wanted for War Crimes Against Humanity. Also there is an important distinction to be made between Germans and Nazis' - the two terms are no more interchangeable than American and Republican.

The Nazi party was in control of Germany during WWII. It was the officers of this party that orchestrated the various atrocities committed during that war.

The scientists and "brains" were just ordinary German citizens who had no choice but to serve the party in power (at the risk of their lives as well as the lives of their families). And they were VERY happy to escape the Nazi regime when offered a chance.

The fact is that several Nazi elite DID seek - and were provided - sanctuary in Argentina for several years. Argentina was (presumably) aware of the atrocities committed by the Nazi's, but they did nothing to aid the international community in tracking them down.

[skywalker]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: Also there is an important distinction to be made between Germans and Nazis' - the two terms are no more interchangeable than American and Republican.

Sort of like Muslims and Terrorists are not interchangeable.

Mark

[Timber Loftis]

Wow, Peron, Pinochet, Kissinger - all the cold war come back to life!! So much discussion I don't know where to jump in. I will note I remember something dodgy about the way Pinochet fell into Spain's hands.

But, I digress. As do we all. It's not that this thread has gotten [img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img] (note that it did start with the Korean confession) so much as I can't even find the topic anymore.

I'll also note how amazing it is the number of historical fact arguments I see. And, we're talking about stuff that happened in the last 30-40 years. Scares me to think how much we must misunderstand older periods of history. Of course, the winners always get to write the history books.

[norompanlasolas]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: quote: Originally posted by norompanlasolas: ....and regarding the nazi retirement community jab. argentina did welcome a fair share of nazis. but so did the us and russia, that fought fiercely between them in recruiting their finest scientists and "brains". the only difference is that it received less publicity.

Actually, there is one other important difference you've overlooked, norompanlasolas -

The scientists and "brains" weren't wanted for War Crimes Against Humanity. Also there is an important distinction to be made between Germans and Nazis' - the two terms are no more interchangeable than American and Republican.

The Nazi party was in control of Germany during WWII. It was the officers of this party that orchestrated the various atrocities committed during that war.

The scientists and "brains" were just ordinary German citizens who had no choice but to serve the party in power (at the risk of their lives as well as the lives of their families). And they were VERY happy to escape the Nazi regime when offered a chance.

The fact is that several Nazi elite DID seek - and were provided - sanctuary in Argentina for several years. Argentina was (presumably) aware of the atrocities committed by the Nazi's, but they did nothing to aid the international community in tracking them down.[/QB][/QUOTE]yes, there is a difference between germans and nazis. but it is pretty naive to think that all the ones that got to the us or russia were simply "poor citizens and nice scientists that had no choice but to serve the evil nazis because if not their wives and kids would be killed". the truth is we will never know the truth. and the nazis that did go to argentina or brasil werent that much. the thing is a couple of big name ones went (like mengele to brasil) so it received more publicity.

oh, and the international community had NO interest WHATSOEVER in tracking them down. it wouldnt have been so easy if they wanted to. the only ones that wanted to do it were the israelis, via the simon wiesenthal organisation. when you read history books its more important what they dont say than whats written.