Religion Thread II (originally posted by Callum Kerr)

[Yorick]

Quoted by Madriver:The first "Gods" were created in the minds of men because of outside experiences they could not explain (lightning, storms, birth, death, etc.). By your logic, the older pantheon of Greek and Roman Gods actually existed because how could people have created them otherwise....right? It is not much of a stretch to go from many Gods to a religion that only has one.

First up, Abram ben Te'rah (2167BC - 1991BC) otherwise known as Abraham - father of Judaism, Islam and Christianity - predates the Trojan war (1184BC) and Homer's telling of it (750BC) which to my knowledge is the first literary account of the 'Greek pantheon' you claim later evolved into monotheism.

Secondly the pantheon consisted of 'gods' who are hardly a stretch of the imagination. They are little more than beefed up humans with superpowers. None are without a beginning. Even Zeus/Jupiter had a father - Saturn - and a mother. Much like a human. None existed outside time in the way we concieve the Creator to.

Heck, the Greek pantheon even had a war where they displaced the Titans (Saturn, Prometheus, Atlas etc were all Titans) to become the rulers of the earth. Sound like humans experiences to you? All the gods were prone to jealousy, politics, bickering, love, hate, lying, deceipt, whims, aggression, favoritism, fear, anger, war, etc, much like humans are.

Interestingly the pantheon included 'the unknown God". The Apostle Paul decided to use that as an "in" and tell the Athenians that he was speaking about "The Unknown God" who had created the world:

Acts 22 - 31 Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you. "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone--an image made by man's design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."

This quite clearly was a radical idea to the idol making, pantheon worshipping Athenians.

Oh, hi Hiram btw. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 12-14-2002, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

Useing that logic , Yorrick, Judeism is the only true path to god since it predates christianity. THat would mean that the Jews have been right all along, while the rest of the world has been on a wild goose chase.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: Useing that logic , Yorrick, Judeism is the only true path to god since it predates christianity. THat would mean that the Jews have been right all along, while the rest of the world has been on a wild goose chase.

Well Christians are completed Jews. All the original Christians were Jews. Christianity involves the belief in the Jewish Messiah. Messianic Jews today are in effect Christians. We can't help it if some Jews just refused to believe the messiah actually came and liberated our souls instead of establishing a physical kingdom.

I love Jews BTW. I have some great Jewish friends in NYC, some messianic, some not.

In any case, we're both believing the Torah to be the word of God.

Also, the New Testament predates the Talmud.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: Useing that logic , Yorrick, Judeism is the only true path to god since it predates christianity. THat would mean that the Jews have been right all along, while the rest of the world has been on a wild goose chase.

In any case I wasn't suggesting oldness = correctness. I was challenging the history-ignoring assertion of monotheism evolving out of polytheism.

[ 12-15-2002, 04:44 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[The Hierophant]

Originally posted by Yorick: Well Christians are completed Jews.

Completed, or misled? Sorry, of course there's no answer to that one and it's all a matter of faith. I just couldn't help but have that thought pop into my mind when I read what you posted [img]smile.gif[/img]

Also, the New Testament predates the Talmud.

But does the Talmud predate the reformation? (that's not a rhetorical question, I'm actually asking for real). From what I get from mid-late Empire Roman documents the christians of the first century certainly not seem to be the same as those of the twenty-first.

[Rokenn]

mmmmm Just saw this quote: "In order to find his equal an Irishman is forced to talk to God!! -- Mad Stephen" in Gregster sig line and it left me with a question. Being that I am Irish and also an Atheist where do I go to talk to my equal?

[Yorick]

Originally posted by The Hierophant: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: Well Christians are completed Jews.

Completed, or misled? Sorry, of course there's no answer to that one and it's all a matter of faith. .[/QUOTE]No it's also a matter of looking at all the Jewish prophecies that Jesus fulfilled (about 100 in all) so it's not just a matter of faith, but also familiarity with text.

Many Jews to this day look at the evidence or feel the Holy Spirit of the same Elohim Yhwh, and end up realising this and so become 'Messianic.' On the other hand Christians filled with the Holy Spirit don't convert to Judaism.

Christianity has a lot more shared beliefs with Judaism than people realise.

A few months ago I had the most amazing experience where I was in a room full of Jews, and we got out the Torah and I compared it to the NIV translation of the first five books of the Bible. (Which is waht the Torah is) Spot on. Concept for concept.

[Grungi]

jewish religion was originally christians but now its gone a little well for want of a better word, weird... like they are only allowed to marry other jews or its frowned upon not to, that wasnt the case in the long distant past, whats the deal with the beards and the black coats? none of that is a religious thing, its all cultural, jews today are totally different from the original jewish faith, i wonder why it changed, anyone know?

i think its out of order for people to kick up a fuss cos a jewish woman marries a christian man, its pathetic and i cannot stand that kind of problem, love is love and IMO is more powerful than religion. If someone wants to marry someone else the only thing to consider should be love not religion or anything else, if they are compatible people then their relatives should step aside and bless the ceremony, thats another reason i dislike organised religion sometimes cos i find some religions to make people intolerant in some ways.

[Grungi]

oh and on the other religious thread where someone said he didnt get what marx was on about with the "religion is the opiate of the people" im not sure if you really didnt understand or not but ill explain anyway....

opiate is opium based so drugs, religion is like a drug insofar as it gives the people pleasure and fulfillment but in marxs opinion its not a lasting fulfillment in the same way as a drug and in the end religion destroys people, i get where hes coming from and the ideal of communism was a good one but as usual it was completely twisted and made something bad (original ideal was communism was the 6th state of man and true communism was utopia in which all men are equal and there is no injustice etc) so in itself a religious concept almost but dont tell marx that or he'd get mad [img]smile.gif[/img]

anyhows i hope that explains what he meant by that statement (or how i intepret what he meant by it)

[Garnet FalconDance]

Originally posted by Grungi: oh and on the other religious thread where someone said he didnt get what marx was on about with the "religion is the opiate of the people" im not sure if you really didnt understand or not but ill explain anyway.... opiate is opium based so drugs, religion is like a drug insofar as it gives the people pleasure and fulfillment but in marxs opinion its not a lasting fulfillment in the same way as a drug and in the end religion destroys people, i get where hes coming from and the ideal of communism was a good one but as usual it was completely twisted and made something bad (original ideal was communism was the 6th state of man and true communism was utopia in which all men are equal and there is no injustice etc) so in itself a religious concept almost but dont tell marx that or he'd get mad [img]smile.gif[/img] anyhows i hope that explains what he meant by that statement (or how i intepret what he meant by it)

Religion is a set of doctrine or ways of worship/means of expressing a sacred belief, not the faith itself. Religion does not destroy people.....people destroy people with their insistance that their peculiar (the original meaning) interpretation is the only one and right one (therefore everyone who does not submit to their obvious superiority/rightness need perish due to either gross evility or possible impending corruption of/designs to corrupt "g-d's" 'true' people.). Fanaticism destroys---whether it is religious or secular.