Smoking Ban part 2, original by Timber Loftis

[Cloudbringer]

Well Jumpin Jehosophat...I sure hope you use a new thread to declare war! [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img]

Sorry, I am sleep deprived and Nacht-deprived at the moment... and for some reason the last few posts make me giggle... LOL

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by MagiK: Wow..Im agreeing with all my "enemies" today. Good post dude. You sound like a good Libertarian [img]smile.gif[/img]

"Enemies" may be too strong a word, but agreeing on one issue and disagreeing with the next is all part of the human paradox I suppose! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Cheers to ya Magik and cheers to ya Yorick and cheers to everyone I have agreed and disagreed with.

I have learned more about myself and other people disagreeing with them than otherwise, it seems sometimes, so I have no problem being "enemies" so as long as we can be paradoxicaly "friends" as well! [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]

[ 05-13-2003, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

[Night Stalker]

Chewie ..... I'll drink to that! [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: "Enemies" may be too strong a word, but agreeing on one issue and disagreeing with the next is all part of the human paradox I suppose! [img]smile.gif[/img] Cheers to ya Magik and cheers to ya Yorick and cheers to everyone I have agreed and disagreed with. I have have learned more about myself and other people disagreeing with them than otherwise, it seems sometimes, so I have no problem being "enemies" so as long as we can be paradoxicaly "friends" as well! [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]

Enemies, adversaries, people on the other side of the debate [img]smile.gif[/img] All great people any way you slice it [img]smile.gif[/img] Cheers back to ya Chewie [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]

Edit: I was a tad disapointed that I didn't get more laughs with my prostate joke a bit earlier [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 05-13-2003, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[mysticelt]

So...Does this mean that in the end we can all just stop blowing smoke up each others arses?

[WillowIX]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: "Enemies" may be too strong a word, but agreeing on one issue and disagreeing with the next is all part of the human paradox I suppose! [img]smile.gif[/img] Cheers to ya Magik and cheers to ya Yorick and cheers to everyone I have agreed and disagreed with. I have learned more about myself and other people disagreeing with them than otherwise, it seems sometimes, so I have no problem being "enemies" so as long as we can be paradoxicaly "friends" as well! [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img]

Hear hear! What an excellent debate this have been and perhaps still is. [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img] Too bad we all can't go out and have a beer together in either a non-smoking or a smoking allowed bar. Let's keep up the good work. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[Bardan the Slayer]

Originally posted by Mordenheim: Why exactly do you reward 600 million to one single man who got cancer? To kill the company of course.

I have to disagree with this. The comapny was fined 600 million for selling a product they knew to be addictive and fatal after long exposure, and advertising it as safe and beneficial to health. They also were fined for suppressing research that proved the damaging, carcinogenic effects of cigarettes, and for not releasing their own research that proved the same thing.

Big fines are there to try and stop large, rich corporations from doing exactly this type of thing. Government is at least on some level and in an entirely inadequate way answerable to the voting public. Large corporations are answerable to stockholders and profit margins. If they could get away with selling you a product that they know is addictive and will kill you, while advertising it as healthy and safe, then they will. In fact, they did, for decades. As untrustworthy as governmental organisations are, private companies on a large scale are 100 times worse.

Generally, though, on the issue at hand I tend to agree with those defending smokers rights. Even though someone on this thread denied reports that smoke-free bars were doing better business than smoker bars in the USA, that is what is happening in the UK, so it's not as ridiculous as they tried to make out.

Yorick's point is well taken about being able to practise his music in non-smokey bars, but I don't think it holds much water. Society has rules about what is illegal and illegal, and smoking in and of itself is not illegal. Who is the government to tell me that I cannot carry out a legal act in a place I own?

I am a non-smoker, and I hate the stuff, yet when I go out with my father for a drink and a game of pool, he smokes a cigar. I don't view this as an infringement of my rights. He is excercising his right to smoke. I ask him not to blow it in my direction, and everyone is happy. If there is an overly smokey bar, I won't go in it. We will find a smoking bar that is less ... intense, shall we say? Everyone is happy.

The name of the game is compromise. When we get to a situation where we do away with compromise and the rights and abilities of people to make their own decisions or reach their own adult compromises, then we have a problem.

This is an entirely different matter to drinking. If someone drink drives (or drink shoots), then this is totally outside of our control. No matter where we walk or where we go, we might be shot/run over/stabbed by someone under the influence. This is immediate, exceptionally fatal, and beyond our control. Smoking is not that way. You can see (and smell) a smoker coming at 100 paces. If you don't want to breathe in their smoke, you have innumerable options. Try them, instead of having them arrested for puffing on a cancer-stick while people are being shot, stabbed, murdered and so on.

Overall, I guess what I am saying is - use a little common sense. Everyone will have different ideas about how the world should be run. How conflict-free your life is depends on how you are willing to compromise with other people to find a workable alternative.

[Timber Loftis]

Wow, a LOVE FEST!!! Cheers all. [img]graemlins/cheers.gif[/img] Now, let's get to the serious drinking. [img]graemlins/1drunk.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/drunkass.gif[/img]

Whew, I need a smoke. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]

[ 05-13-2003, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Timber Loftis]

I agree that big fines are about PUNISHMENT and about CONSUMER FRAUD. They are a slap to get the company to pay attention. Hitting Phillip Morris for $1million at a time is simply charging it a very small tax on its consumer fraud -- one it will readily pay considering the rarity of a lawsuit which can muster the necessary proof.

Now, it is a flaw in our legal system that all of those fines go to the plaintiff. They should go to legal aid, charity, anti-smoking campaigns, etc. I've harped on this (*my* version of tort reform) before, so I shan't go further [img]graemlins/offtopic.gif[/img]

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by Mordenheim: quote: Originally posted by Mordenheim: A FAIR AND EQUAL conclusion was never tried nor considered. So go ahead and not respond to 90% of my post and pick what you feel you can attack. Just remember that no amount of debate is going to change this fact : When you make the LEGAL act of smoking ILLEGAL in a PRIVATE owned establishment then you ARE discriminating. So enjoy it folk's and be glad to wear the "tearing down America one freedom at a time" hat.

[/QUOTE]Simple solution then, we outlaw nicotine. Since it has no medical vaule it should be classified as a narcotic, like heroin.