Massachusetts high court: Same-sex couples entitled to marry

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Maybe Anne was just bisexual and could have been happy with a man or a woman so long as they were the right person?

Not according to an article I read a shortly after her "break up" with Ellen and subsequent marriage to a her husband. According to Anne, she had a very unhappy childhood. I can't remember all the specific details, but it seems like the root problem was her father's lack of love and/or support. And it could have even involved allegations of molesting, I honostly don't remember. But I do remember her saying that her unhappy childhood had led her to try many different things in search of fulfillment - things such as smoking, drugs, and becoming a lesbian.

The indication I got was that she realized she was more hetero than homo, and that her "experiment" as a lesbian was due to a lack of self esteem and self worth.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Yorick, I do see where you're coming from on the "in the moment" definition. However, chosing to briefly experiment with a lifestyle is not chosing the lifestyle.

And what if the person dies during sex? Or straight after? They would die homosexual. What if they enjoyed it, but had they lived, perhaps would have returned to bisexuality or hetrosexuality?

It is deemed "experimentation" in hindsight. After the period of time.

What if there is no "after". If so, for that moment, the person was homosexual. For the period of time, they chose to entertain, and act on those desires, they were homosexual. If they subsequently change, and control, limit, remove, or deny those desires, they become celibate or hetrosexual.

[Yorick]

I thinm it's more offensivew to Ellen and Anne to call it "an experiment" or denying the homosexual nature of the relationship by attempting to redifine her sexuality based on her current choices.

It's like revisionist history.

While she was with Ellen, she was homosexual. Pure and simple.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Stratos: Well, I don't think we CHOOSE our desires, but true, we can choose if we want to act upon them or not. How much those choices affect our mental health, if anything, is a differrent issue altogether. On the cause of homosexuality, the theories I've heard is in the chemical/hormonal field and not directly in the genetic one. No Gay Genes, in other words. I'll see if I can find some info on this.

Perhaps I misspoke in my first post. I had given my comments a lot of thought, but I was a bit rushed when I actually posted them.

You are correct that we don't CHOOSE our desires. Rather, we CHOOSE whether to act on them or not. I realize that for many homosexuals, the desire is simply too great for them to feel they actually have a choice about it. I know one person in particular - a long time family friend - that is living this reality. But I also know of others (similar to the Anne Heche example), that seem to want to "try" the homosexual lifestyle simply because they've always had a hidden desire to do so and they've finally decided to just give in to the desire. Some may say it was "unhealthy" for them to suppress those desires all along, that's where I counter with the argument that it must then be "unhealthy" for me to suppress MY desire to have sex with more than one partner. So what if I made a promise to forsake all others, that isn't as important as giving in to my self-satisfaction, right? Wrong! While I may find other women attractive, or even desirable, I am not self-centered enough to break my marriage vows simply for a the sake of giving in to every whim of a desire I may have.

This is the point that I think Yorick was making earlier when he made a comparison between homosexuality and murder. It isn't that the two are equally "bad"...the point I think he was trying to make (and that I agree with) is that each of us have personal desires that we suppress or resist because they go against our personal moral code or the moral code of our society. So suppression of our personal desires is not intrinsically "unhealthy". Sometimes, the shame or guilt we feel AFTER giving in to these desires is far more unhealthy.

[Chewbacca]

I think making homosexuality out as being merely a choice is simply a perspective of convienence for those who oppose it. I also think that it defies conventional wisdom and common sense to extrapolate the expirience of a few and relate it to the many.

Regardless, I don't fault people for having these opinions because they are mere opinions and not like facts. I can understand how someone like Cerek, with a religiuos prejudice against homosexuality, would believe it to be a choice, as it serves the religous prejudice for any and all homosexuals to have an "out" in order to become "acceptable" to the religion. Now this is simply my opinion and assement of why someone would hold the opinion that homosexuality is a choice. I do welcome countering veiws.

BTW- Kudos for your honesty and perspective, Cerek.


It is worth noting that so far I have heard no first-hand testimony from homosexuals, except that essay I posted a few pages back by Andrew Sullivan. In his essay I saw no indication that of him making a choice to be homosexual.

I offer as a countering veiw to homosexuality or any sexuality, as an emotional or mental choice, or as a genetic thing, or as a hormonal thing, ect. I offer Soulfulness as an alternative. I offer that unique individual souls choose to share life and love in serious dating and/or marriage relationships because they are divinely inspired too. Soulmates don't care about gender, or social conditoning, or hormones. Significant relationships regardless of "sexual preference" are a 'soul choice' and serve to fufil the divine plan of individuals. Chalk this veiwpoint up to my own "religious prejudice".

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

That's actually sort of deep, Yorick. I hate to admit it, but I'm a bit impressed.
It wasn't exactly the type of thing I was setting out to discuss, but an interesting topic for a coffeehouse discussion, to be sure.

[Djinn Raffo]

Let em get married.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: Let em get married.

I got Deja Vu when I read this...I wonder why? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Spelca]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: Not according to an article I read a shortly after her "break up" with Ellen and subsequent marriage to a her husband. According to Anne, she had a very unhappy childhood. I can't remember all the specific details, but it seems like the root problem was her father's lack of love and/or support. And it could have even involved allegations of molesting, I honostly don't remember. But I do remember her saying that her unhappy childhood had led her to try many different things in search of fulfillment - things such as smoking, drugs, and becoming a lesbian. The indication I got was that she realized she was more hetero than homo, and that her "experiment" as a lesbian was due to a lack of self esteem and self worth.

I found an interview with her where she doesn't say anything like that. She does say she did drugs, smoked and had sex with people, but she never says she became a lesbian because of it (her childhood). She just says "[y]ou fall in love with a person, not a sex". The way she describes her relationship with Ellen was that she was in love, and not as an "experiment". You can read it here. [img]smile.gif[/img]

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/...04_heche2.html

[ 02-22-2004, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: Spelca ]

[Stratos]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: Perhaps I misspoke in my first post. I had given my comments a lot of thought, but I was a bit rushed when I actually posted them.

Well, my post was just a general point of view in the topic, and not really a rebuttal to your post.

You are correct that we don't CHOOSE our desires. Rather, we CHOOSE whether to act on them or not. I realize that for many homosexuals, the desire is simply too great for them to feel they actually have a choice about it. I know one person in particular - a long time family friend - that is living this reality. But I also know of others (similar to the Anne Heche example), that seem to want to "try" the homosexual lifestyle simply because they've always had a hidden desire to do so and they've finally decided to just give in to the desire. Some may say it was "unhealthy" for them to suppress those desires all along, that's where I counter with the argument that it must then be "unhealthy" for me to suppress MY desire to have sex with more than one partner. So what if I made a promise to forsake all others, that isn't as important as giving in to my self-satisfaction, right? Wrong! While I may find other women attractive, or even desirable, I am not self-centered enough to break my marriage vows simply for a the sake of giving in to every whim of a desire I may have.

I see a difference between supressing your homosexuality and adultery. Technically, a homosexual man can supress, or choose not to act on, his homosexuality and instead marry a woman; but would he be happy? Probably not.

By comparison, a married heterosexual man who supress his desires to have sex with other women would still be happily married with his wife. He looses some of his sexual freedom, but gains something in turn and that's a choice many, both men and women, choose to make. The only thing the homosexual man, who supresses how he feels sexually, gains is some matter of social acceptance.

This is the point that I think Yorick was making earlier when he made a comparison between homosexuality and murder. It isn't that the two are equally "bad"...the point I think he was trying to make (and that I agree with) is that each of us have personal desires that we suppress or resist because they go against our personal moral code or the moral code of our society. So suppression of our personal desires is not intrinsically "unhealthy". Sometimes, the shame or guilt we feel AFTER giving in to these desires is far more unhealthy.

I consider sexuality as an integral part of the human being and as such is, at least, on a constant 'stand-by' mode. The urge to murder is generally a reaction against some outside event and is usually temporary and will eventually pass. As a heterosexual man, there have been many more instances in my life where I have been attracted to a woman, than the urge to kill someone.

[ 02-22-2004, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Stratos ]