The American Constitution

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: quote: Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Let's do keep in mind that as the law currently stands, the privilege to drive is a governmentally-granted privilege, not a right. I don't think this disproves anything anyone has said, I'm just making a point of it.

Yes, you are quite right, that the RIGHT to drive a vehicle in the US, isn't in the Constitution.[/QUOTE]uhh guys, No one has the right to drive. It is a priveledge revokable at the states discression It is amazing how few people actually realize this. Which brings to mind the lady in florida who refused to uncoverher face for her license photo, and yet still "demanded her right to drive". I cannot believe she won that case.

[Timber Loftis]

Sir T, you've got a point, but if our government was a corrupt tyranny or some such (meaning: the kind we'd *want* to take down), it would be harder to shut the system down via the means you cite. 150 snipers in D.C. = bomb D.C. See, the problem is not so hard to tackle if you're a corrupt regime to begin with. But, I concede the havoc one armed man can cause. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] Oh, and quite smart to put in the disclaimer these days. Which I adopt completely. I *love* my country and my government and am merely debating hypotheticals. *grins sheepishly at the guys in black suits and shades*

As for the driving thing not being in the constitution, it's more than just that. Not only is it not a guaranteed right, but you are presumed illegal when you drive without a governmental permit - called a license.

Originally posted by Sir Taliesin: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: [QB] I'll also mention the fall of South Africas apartheid, the fall of the Soviet Union, and the peaceful revolution in the Philipines only last year or so. There's also the eventual downfall of the Golkar party in Indonesia that went without violent overthrow.[QB]

Personally, I'd prefer death than to living a life in misery and subjegation. Who here wouldn't mind living like a Jew in the Warsaw ghetto prior to the rebellion there. Granted they lost the rebellion, but ultimately their action shorted the war by tying up many German soldiers that could have been used against the Soviets.[/QUOTE]Sir T, did you purposely leave out his so called peaceful resolution to the Cold War? Id like to point out said peaceful resolution cost many thousands of people their lives. From crashing ships into each other, to trading gun fire, to bumping subs to third party wars, the Cold war was not accomplished through peacful or bloodless discussions.

[Gandar]

Yorick, it seems that all you want to post about are gripes and bitches about the AMERICAN culture, the AMERICAN Constitution, and anything that goes against your own "Peace-Love-Dope" pseudo-communist beliefs. Don't take this as me saying "GET OUT", but if you aren't satisfied here, I will GLADLY help you with your relocation costs if you can find a better place. In fact, I know of one place that seems to fit nicely. It has everything you are whining for:

1) Nobdy but leadership is allowed to have guns, or any other weapon.

2) No cost to the consumer health care.

3) No cost to the consumer meals.

4) No cars.

5) No legal capitalism.

Don't it make your mouth water?

It's called PRISON, and that is what this country would be, if it were not for The Constitution of the United States of America, A document that I hold so dear that I gladly swore an oath to defend with my life, an oath that I didn't take lightly. And do you know what, after I took that oath, I willingly gave up the rights that that document gave me during my time in the Navy. When you are in the military, your Constitutional rights are supplanted by the "Uniform Code of Military Justice". But I loved what the LIVING Constitution had created that I swore to give my life for it, and yes I get DAMNED offended when someone comes to this country and starts bitching about it. This country is more tolerant of diverse cultures than any I know of. During my visit to Japan, there was a small area right off base that catered to American military, but go out in town, you either tried to learn and live the culture, or you left. They even had bars that had a sign right on the door, "Japanese Only". America may not be perfect, but it's the closest thing yet, and I love it dearly. So instead of trying to change a country of 300,000,000 AMERICANS, Why don't you try to fit in with the culture and quit nit-picking!!!

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Sir T, you've got a point, but if our government was a corrupt tyranny or some such (meaning: the kind we'd *want* to take down), it would be harder to shut the system down via the means you cite. 150 snipers in D.C. = bomb D.C. See, the problem is not so hard to tackle if you're a corrupt regime to begin with. But, I concede the havoc one armed man can cause. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] Oh, and quite smart to put in the disclaimer these days. Which I adopt completely. I *love* my country and my government and am merely debating hypotheticals. *grins sheepishly at the guys in black suits and shades* As for the driving thing not being in the constitution, it's more than just that. Not only is it not a guaranteed right, but you are presumed illegal when you drive without a governmental permit - called a license.

150? try 150,000 or 15,000,000 or possibly as many as 80,000,000 accross the nation not to mention that MANY of the Armed forces you suggest bomb DC would be siding with those armed citizens. I think if the government really did go wacko it would be an ugly ugly thing, but int he end, just as in Vietnam, and Afghanistan (for the russians) the Armed Citizenary would eventually win out.

[Gandar]

With Government, for the most part, tightly grouped, and the armed citizenry widely spread, the result would not be as cut-and-dry as Timber Loftis made it out to be. It would truely be nasty, But the only way a corrupted gov't could put down that kind of a rebellion would be a complete saturation bombing of the entire country, and even then, what would the gov't have left to govern?

[Timber Loftis]

MagiK, I know what you're trying to say, but I think the citizenry would win out whether or not they were armed. You cited Vietnam - a perfect example. Of course, maybe if the protestors at Kent were armed there wouldn't have been the bloodshed. But maybe there would have been a lot more. I don't aim to analyze the skeins of time for possible outcomes, I'm just saying that the particular near-revolution the USA averted regarding Vietnam was not an armed revolution but rather a rowdy unarmed ongoing protest.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: 4.My problem with the car culture How did humanity survive without the car before it was invented? Did they all live in hell? Did they all not have free choice? The car is not the be all and end all of human achievement.

I can answer this easily. Prior to affordable and reliable transportation people walked, rode horses or carts drawn by some draft animal. If we were to return to that type of environment we would suffer the following problems.

1. The first and foremost problem, is that we would be drowning in horse shit.
2. People would die frequently due to no fast way to receive medical care.
3. Business transactions would take days, weeks, months or years.
4. Fresh Produce would only be available in rural communities

The Automobile is one of the greatest inventions in our nations history. It has allowed us to expand our economy, our industry and our quality of life. if you say fine only have commercial Autos such as delivery trucks you ignore the fact that it took masses of people to be interested in roads before the infrastructure could be built. I suppose if we completely gave up any sense of capitalism we could nationalize everythiung and form a communist or socialistic style...but MOST americans would never settle for this.[/b][/QUOTE]One of the greatest inventions? You have got to be kidding. It's a double edged sword. Benefits and drawbacks.

Taking your points:

1.We didn't drown in horse manure before.
2.If people are closer together this isn't an issue. Besides, ambulences can't get to a car accident in gridlock as is.
3.Not with successful mass transit, faxes, emails, and phones.
4.Maybe we'd have more rural communities then. Or a good system of mass-delivering produce.

In any case you're missing the point. As always with you it's black and white. You seem incapable of grasping the concept of REDUCTION. The gun issue is about harm REDUCTION not removal. Criticism of car dependant culture is about automobile REDUCTION, not removal altogether. Creating car reduced polises like New York, Singapore and Rome are heading towards.

Try and understand this MagiK, otherwise you're arguing with yourself.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Gandar: Yorick, it seems that all you want to post about are gripes and bitches about the AMERICAN culture, the AMERICAN Constitution, and anything that goes against your own "Peace-Love-Dope" pseudo-communist beliefs. Don't take this as me saying "GET OUT", but if you aren't satisfied here, I will GLADLY help you with your relocation costs if you can find a better place. In fact, I know of one place that seems to fit nicely. It has everything you are whining for: 1) Nobdy but leadership is allowed to have guns, or any other weapon. 2) No cost to the consumer health care. 3) No cost to the consumer meals. 4) No cars. 5) No legal capitalism. Don't it make your mouth water? It's called PRISON, and that is what this country would be, if it were not for The Constitution of the United States of America, A document that I hold so dear that I gladly swore an oath to defend with my life, an oath that I didn't take lightly. And do you know what, after I took that oath, I willingly gave up the rights that that document gave me during my time in the Navy. When you are in the military, your Constitutional rights are supplanted by the "Uniform Code of Military Justice". But I loved what the LIVING Constitution had created that I swore to give my life for it, and yes I get DAMNED offended when someone comes to this country and starts bitching about it. This country is more tolerant of diverse cultures than any I know of. During my visit to Japan, there was a small area right off base that catered to American military, but go out in town, you either tried to learn and live the culture, or you left. They even had bars that had a sign right on the door, "Japanese Only". America may not be perfect, but it's the closest thing yet, and I love it dearly. So instead of trying to change a country of 300,000,000 AMERICANS, Why don't you try to fit in with the culture and quit nit-picking!!!

Perhaps Barry would like to comment on how communist my ideology is.

Anti-capitalism does not equal socialism or communism. Yes I'm anti-capitalist, but I'm also anti-communism and anti-feudalism. There are more than three possible ways to have a society, even if we haven't discovered them yet. So don't try and label me based on a few posts.

Secondly legalising marijuana has nothing to do with enjoying dope. I do not, and never have smoked weed. Am I for legalisation? Of course. I'm actually for legalisation of ALL drugs. Get it all out in the open. Remove organised crime. Get help for those addicted to hard drugs without it all being a crime cloaked in mysterious countercultural rebellion. Reduce the inflated supply and demand, and give consenting adults an educated CHOICE about what they want to put in their own bodies.

That doesn't make me a tripper. Polls show most parents of addicts are in favour of legalisation. The current "war" approach has failed miserably.

Now, regarding the rest of your post, it amazes me that you've tried the "if you don't like it leave approach". Sorry. That will never happen. If you don't like it, leave. It works both ways you know.

That whole "get out if you don't like it" arguement operates under the assumption that I don't personally like living here, or living under the laws, or adhering to the culture.

Let me clue you in. I CHOSE to live here. I wouldn't have done it if I didn't love the place. If I didn't enjoy living here.

I do not believe love is blind though. I'm aware of the problems within American, Australian and Western culture in general. I like discussing them on a message board. As an artist I do my little bit towards changing things for the better. Even if its making an individuals day a little better when they hear me sing or something.

America is not perfect. Australia is not perfect. Australia is as dependent on the car as America is.

Anyhow, let's look at your points.

1. If civilians were banned from having guns, the leadership would not possess them. Bush wouldn't. Cheney wouldn't. Only the armed forces.

2. Damn straight that's how it should be. Heath should not be the privilege of the rich.

3. I never advocated that.

4. I never advocated that. See my post above. Reduction is not removal.

5. I believe I've addressed this.

So. If you disagree, argue the point. Don't try and supress an argument with claims of "rude guest". For starters it won't work. Secondly it's an international forum. Third, there are many Americans who share my sentiments, even though I as a newcomer have a fresh perspective. Fourth, I don't hate America, I love it and care about it.

Why did I bother even writing this bloody post?? What a waste of time. I could have been really mature and just written "Bugger you! Nyaa nyaa nyaa" and it would've saved a great deal of effort.

[ 10-25-2002, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Animal]

I think the horse is dead, guys!