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Old 07-09-2004, 01:24 PM   #171
Ronn_Bman
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I'm pretty sure I mean the same thing as you do with Pot Meet Kettle, but I will elaborate.

I mean that you 'attack' or 'go personal' with the questioner as often as anyone else in this forum, but somehow you see it as different when other's do it.

Regarding Moore's work, you wonder if they are afraid of the answers a thoughtful exploration of the issue may uncover, while I wonder if you are simply willing to ignore and/or disregard those things that are obviously wrong because they don't fit within your opinion on the issue. Two different ways of making a very similar complaint.

You make an assumption, and I make an assumption and it is nothing more or less than that on either of our parts, but you always seem at ease claiming the other person won't address the issues, and they only attack the poster because they have no way to address the true issue. I, and others here, do address the issues, just because you dismiss things(rightly or not) doesn't mean the rest of us have to, and it doesn't give you the right to insinuate or to say that we don't debate the topics.

We have different opinions, and you say you support that, and I'm not saying you don't, but just because I continue talking about things you dismiss, and I can't understand why you can so easily dismiss them, doesn't mean I'm 'attacking' or 'dodging' or whatever. It means I continue to talk about things I consider to be issues.

Also, it isn't the 'attackers' who take away from the question posed in Moore's film. It is Moore's methodology. Of course that is just my opinion.
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Old 07-09-2004, 09:51 PM   #172
Chewbacca
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:
I'm pretty sure I mean the same thing as you do with Pot Meet Kettle, but I will elaborate.

I mean that you 'attack' or 'go personal' with the questioner as often as anyone else in this forum, but somehow you see it as different when other's do it.

Oh Bullshit, your just trying to cover up your own on-going vendetta against me with the lame and weak rational- "you do it too". Boo freaking hoo.

I was not refering to anyone on this forum with the statement in question Ronn, but to websites like Hardy's or michealmoorehates America.com. The only time I did mention my opinion that the question posed in the film as being more important than the film's critisms on these forums, one of Moore's biggest critics here addressed it head on and agreed it was a subject worth exploring.

Go ahead and continue your seemingly personal vendetta against me, I grow more and more amused each time. [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 07-09-2004, 10:24 PM   #173
Oblivion437
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The problem with Moore raising the questions he does (and Hardy addresses this at the bottom of the main BfC page) is that he does so through deceptions, lies, and spin. Showing the most honest truth possible (I'll hear no comments from the peanut gallery about truth) would be far more valuable. To be as honest as one can about this raises his points to a valid level.

If you make the dragon in your garage invisible on purpose, you're doing the wrong thing...

I agree that issues about the mass media, violence and manipulation of public opinion do need to be explored, seriously.

I think that most posters on this forum are more serious about it than Moore is, and seriously, that clown is just looking to sell you a product, we're here to know the truth of the matter. Moore isn't sincere enough, or honest enough, to be taken seriously. Others are, as they show us the data, we draw our conclusions from it.

I will honestly say the following things:

--The most irrational bullshitters I've enocuntered on this and another forum are more sincere, and more honorable, than Michael Moore, even when they're lying through their teeth, or deluding themselves to the point that they're practically wearing blinders throughout a debate.

--I hold every one of you on Ironworks leagues above politicians, film makers, book authors and celebrities for your opinions. You're all loads more interesting, and more insightful.

And Chewbacca, that last post was a glaring demonstration of utter hypocrisy. You've gone from a seemingly irrational defender of Moore, to an ad-hominem spewing asshole. This debate is too grown up for you.

You're still better than Michael Moore though.

[ 07-09-2004, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Oblivion437 ]
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Old 07-09-2004, 10:30 PM   #174
Chewbacca
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oblivion437:

And Chewbacca, that last post was a glaring demonstration of utter hypocrisy. You've gone from a seemingly irrational defender of Moore, to an ad-hominem spewing asshole.
Thank you.

Quote:

This debate is too grown up for you.
Irony...overload...Warning!!!!...head. will. explode. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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Old 07-09-2004, 10:37 PM   #175
wellard
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Mad

Quote:
Originally posted by Oblivion437:
It does reflect very badly on you that you use the "I have too much of a life" cop-out to run away while your strawmen get burned. I find it funny that you say good for you, as a couple Australians say G'day to mean "kiss my ass" or mate to mean "asshole." It takes me an average of 10 minutes to construct a reply, and that's if I do serious fact-checking... Are you saying you never have 10 minutes to spare?
Pre amble ... sorry to one and all that I chose a quote with Strawman included accept my apologies

I have never in my whole life met an Australian who has used the greeting G'day to mean kiss my ass or 'mate' to mean asshole. If people have used those terms in that context with you maybe that say a whole lot about you Oblivion mate

And just what as Australian language got to do with it all any road ? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img]
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Old 07-09-2004, 10:43 PM   #176
wellard
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oblivion437:

And Chewbacca, that last post was a glaring demonstration of utter hypocrisy. You've gone from a seemingly irrational defender of Moore, to an ad-hominem spewing asshole. This debate is too grown up for you.

Wow calls Australians two faced, baits (IMO) Grojlach with the breakdown of his posts despite repeated requests not to then this.

Is this what Ironworks has become? *sigh*
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Old 07-10-2004, 12:24 AM   #177
Memnoch
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Quote:
Originally posted by Oblivion437:
The problem with Moore raising the questions he does (and Hardy addresses this at the bottom of the main BfC page) is that he does so through deceptions, lies, and spin. Showing the most honest truth possible (I'll hear no comments from the peanut gallery about truth) would be far more valuable. To be as honest as one can about this raises his points to a valid level.

If you make the dragon in your garage invisible on purpose, you're doing the wrong thing...

I agree that issues about the mass media, violence and manipulation of public opinion do need to be explored, seriously.

I think that most posters on this forum are more serious about it than Moore is, and seriously, that clown is just looking to sell you a product, we're here to know the truth of the matter. Moore isn't sincere enough, or honest enough, to be taken seriously. Others are, as they show us the data, we draw our conclusions from it.

I will honestly say the following things:

--The most irrational bullshitters I've enocuntered on this and another forum are more sincere, and more honorable, than Michael Moore, even when they're lying through their teeth, or deluding themselves to the point that they're practically wearing blinders throughout a debate.

--I hold every one of you on Ironworks leagues above politicians, film makers, book authors and celebrities for your opinions. You're all loads more interesting, and more insightful.

And Chewbacca, that last post was a glaring demonstration of utter hypocrisy. You've gone from a seemingly irrational defender of Moore, to an ad-hominem spewing asshole. This debate is too grown up for you.

You're still better than Michael Moore though.
G'day Oblivion, your post was going well until the second sentence of your second last paragraph. Please don't stoop down to namecalling - we don't call people assholes here, no matter how their beliefs differ from ours. Don't do it again or you will be taking a break from here - I'm almost past the point of giving people second chances, but you still deserve to have one as I think this is your first transgression here.

Cheers mate.

[ 07-10-2004, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]
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Old 07-10-2004, 11:05 AM   #178
Davros
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Oblivion - you sure have some odd ideas about Australian slang there sunshine.

On the topic of a more rational approach to Moores works, do you have any "non-Hardy" sources that you would like to use to support your cases. It might just be me, but Hardy comes across as little more than a rabid gun nutter on his website.
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Old 07-10-2004, 04:41 PM   #179
Oblivion437
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Quote:
Originally posted by wellard:
Wow calls Australians two faced, baits (IMO) Grojlach with the breakdown of his posts despite repeated requests not to then this.

Is this what Ironworks has become? *sigh*
I didn't call Australians two-faced. I merely mentioned how Australians I know use typically sunny-dispositioned mannerisms as insults. It would be like me saying have a nice day while flipping you off, except more subtle.

I wasn't baiting with the breakdown of his posts. If he doesn't like the heat of serious debate, he can stay out of the kitchen at his liesure.

Besides, you have at least once attacked my character on a nonsense claim that I was 'covering my tracks' with my massive, multi-layered responses (I prefer the term bloated though, as I should have bottled the answer at least twice in that discussion) needing multiple edits. That you attack my character now like this, well it doesn't surprise me a bit.

Memnoch, I understand. The owner makes the rules, and you enforce them. I'm not apologizing to anyone though.

Davros, Hardy doesn't make any overtly pro-gun statements, nor does he contend that Moore is in favor of gun control, or make that an issue on the site, actually, he brings up a rarely repeated but very interesting insight, based on something Moore himself said: It was a strongly anti-gun movie, but after September 11, Moore changed his mind (apparently, realizing that people are responsible for violence, and not weapons, which is exactly what I've been contending, was enough to frost his cookies well enough that he decided to go for a second bake) about the whole issue, and decided to make a different film.

For whatever reason though, he didn't change most of the existing film.

Laziness? Doubtful...
Time constraints? Possible...
Financial limitations? Just maybe...
Emotional attachment? Also possible, it is a lot of work to flush down the toilet, he might have seen it as sort of his baby and he didn't want to cast it to the other side of the wind.

Hardy did criticize stating raw numbers, not rates, which lends a false impression.
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Old 07-10-2004, 10:31 PM   #180
Davros
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You are proving to me that you are well off beam on your knowledge of Australians and Australianisms. The fact that you bit on G'day (which never means anything other than good day - or if you would rather "hello") and mate (which is a well intentioned phrase that means friend, acquaitance, guy I just met that ain't done me no wrong et al) suggested that your knowledge was rather limited. Had a person used the word "matey" as in "look here matey" (with a vocal emphasis on the last word) you might have had good reason to suspect he didn't really like you, but you still have only had that expressed by nuance as opposed to being directly insulted.

To test out your knowledge to see if it was any good, I dropped something in there quite deiberately to see if you would bite at it. If you were right up there with your learnins on Australians and their ways you would have bitten at the word "sunshine". That you did not suggests to me that you were groping and grasping when you reacted to Wellard.

I do of course retract my reference and apologise for its use - even as a test it is not a good thing to say to anyone. I chose the term because it was an oblique reference, yet general enough that poeple with good Australianism credentials would know it.

For your further edification, we use the term "sunshine" on people who love themselves so much they think the sun shines out of their own ****.

[ 07-10-2004, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: Davros ]
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