Taking out the trash in Yemen!!!

[Timber Loftis]

No, MagiK, and you know I didn't mean it in the "blackmail" sort of way. I'm saying 100 Americans, willing to fly to Iraq and stand in front of a tank, when most Americans can't be bothered to even stay abreast of the issues, is indicative of a larger problem at home. It's not the 100 themselves, but the many others they may be representative of, that are the concern. An unpopular war causes hell at home - a la Vietnam, which came pretty darn near to outright rebellion by the people.

Personally, I have not met nearly as many Americans who think we should go to Iraq as I have those who think we shouldn't. I'm not saying my experience is indicative of the nation as a whole - but it gives me pause.

You know, you were right - this should have been another thread. Iraq is much more contentious on this board than killing terrorists, and is very different as well.

[ 11-06-2002, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

[Dreamer128]

Originally posted by Gandar: quote: Originally posted by Dreamer128: Personally, I'd still rather have ten 'suspected' terrorists on the loose then one innocent bystander in a bodybag. And what happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'? No matter how much evidence there is against someone, he/she is still innocent until (here we go again)this person is found guilty. Of course I'm still young and naive, so what do I know. *shrugs.

I, for one would rather be the "one innocent bystander in a bodybag" than to allow 10 suspected terrorists to continue murdering hundreds or thousands of people. I have 5 kids that could just as easily have been victims of a terrorist attack as the ones that were killed on 9/11. Would you still feel the same way if these sacks of camel-dung were let get away, and then found out they were responsible for a school bombing that left dozens of your family and friends dead?[/QUOTE]I wouldn't have a problem with it, if all the innocent bystanders got the same choice. Unfortunatly, nations such as Isreal don't seem to have much of a problem with blowing up an intire city block just to get a single Hamas leader... nor do the Taliban and apparantly.. neither do we.
Don't get me wrong.. if it was up to me, all those bastards would be rotting in jail right now (if only it was that simple ). I'm just trying to keep an eye on the border that separates us from the terrorists.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: No, MagiK, and you know I didn't mean it in the "blackmail" sort of way. I'm saying 100 Americans, willing to fly to Iraq and stand in front of a tank, when most Americans can't be bothered to even stay abreast of the issues, is indicative of a larger problem at home. It's not the 100 themselves, but the many others they may be representative of, that are the concern. An unpopular war causes hell at home - a la Vietnam, which came pretty darn near to outright rebellion by the people. Personally, I have not met nearly as many Americans who think we should go to Iraq as I have those who think we shouldn't. I'm not saying my experience is indicative of the nation as a whole - but it gives me pause. This might just be an indication of your circle of friends. Just as my circle of friends has a majority of people wanting to "bomb Iraq back to the stone age" (I keep telling them that Iraq isn't far removed as it is, but they dont listen). If the majority of Americans really did not want us to be doing anything about Iraq, Im pretty sure we would have seen some indication of it at the polls. It is after all a "Bush Administration" issue a "Republican" Issue as has been posted on this board most frequently. As far as 100 people being fanatical enough to go to iraq. In a nation of 300,000,000 people (roughly) it wouldnt be all that hard to find 100 people to stand up for any particular cause. You know, you were right - this should have been another thread. Iraq is much more contentious on this board than killing terrorists, and is very different as well.

Lol now ya tell me [img]smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by Dreamer128: I wouldn't have a problem with it, if all the innocent bystanders got the same choice. Unfortunatly, nations such as Isreal don't seem to have much of a problem with blowing up an intire city block just to get a single Hamas leader... nor do the Taliban and apparantly.. neither do we. Don't get me wrong.. if it was up to me, all those bastards would be rotting in jail right now (if only it was that simple ). I'm just trying to keep an eye on the border that separates us from the terrorists.

Not to come off hostile here, but I want to point out that when the Israelis move their tanks in, everyone sees them coming and either runs and or chooses to stand and fight, so if there are casualties most are victims of their own choices. Whereas the suicidal bombers that incite the israelis into sending their tanks here and there, quietly slip into crowds of men, women and children and PURPOSLY kill as many innocent civilians as possible. I can see a moral distinction here.

Im not so much Pro-Israeli as I am vehemently anti-terrorist/anti-purposful slaughter of children and civilians.

Edit: The border that seperates US from the terrorists, is that we openly announce that we are targeting the terrorists and only target the terrorists (yeah some times we miss and accidents do happenin war..but we AIM for the terrorists) Terrorists on the other hand do declare war on nations, ideology or religions, but they indiscriminantly attack civilians, people who are in no way active combatants.

Edit2: to highlight a Key point!

[ 11-06-2002, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Timber Loftis]

Um, not to be the bean counter, MagiK, but I think Osama did declare war on the US.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Um, not to be the bean counter, MagiK, but I think Osama did declare war on the US.

Reread the Post Timber [img]smile.gif[/img] I admitted that terrorists do usually have a declared hatered and desire for war with their targets, I then pointed out that they just choose indiscriminate targets. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Night Stalker]

Originally posted by Ziroc: quote: Originally posted by Attalus: All right, it is getting more interesting. There was a "secondary explosion" after the Hellfire blew them to their afterlife, and they have found traces of bombs and weapons in the car. Not much argument there for the innocents argument. Oh, and it wasn't just a mattter of "we know where they are so let's just go arrest them." It was in a remote, lawless band of mountains far in the backwoods. That was their best shot, and they took it. I'm behind them 100%. They can remove that joke about our agents never getting their man from Entertainment Weekly.

As I knew they were. Anyone that would hang out with the the Top leaders of 'The Base' are just as guilty.. Glad they got them. Maybe they saved a few innocents from being killed on a corner store or bus.

Anyone know what package the Hellfire carries? Is there napalm in it? I was just wondering.[/QUOTE]Z

The Hellfire missle carries a conventional shaped charge warhead designed to pierce the armor of main battle tanks.

edit: more info on the AGM-114 Hellfire

The Hellfire Air-to-Ground Missile System (AGMS) provides heavy anti-armor capability for attack helicopters. The first three generations of HELLFIRE missiles use a laser seeker. The fourth generation, Longbow HELLFIRE, uses a radar frequency seeker.

The first generation of Laser HELLFIRE presently is used as the main armament of the U.S. Army's AH-64 Apache and U.S. Marine Corps' AH-1W Super Cobra helicopters. The second generation currently is available for deployment. Laser HELLFIRE homes on a laser spot that can be projected from ground observers, other aircraft, or the launching aircraft itself. This enables the system to be employed in a variety of modes: autonomous, air or ground, direct or indirect, single shot, rapid, or ripple fire.

The AGM-114A Basic HELLFIRE tactical missile is the originally designed Hellfire missile, which is no longer purchased by the Army. A total of 31,616 were produced by both Martin Marietta and Rockwell International since 1982. AGM-114As in the inventory are released for live-fire training when they are replaced with AGM-114Cs.

The AGM-114B, although primarily designed for Navy use, can be fired from Army aircraft. This missile has an additional electronic arm/safety device required for shipboard use.
The AGM-114C missile has an improved semiactive laser seeker with an improved low visibility capability. The AGM-114C has a low smoke motor and a lower trajectory than the 114A. Army missiles should be marked with either the A or C designation just behind the seeker.

The AGM-114F Interim HELLFIRE missile features two warheads [adding a precursor warhead to defeat vehicles equipped with reactive armor] a seeker and an autopilot similar to the C-model missile. Final delivery of the Interim HELLFIRE missiles produced by Rockwell was completed in January 1994. Production for foreign military sales continued.

The AGM-114K HELLFIRE II missile features dual warheads for defeating reactive armor, electro-optical countermeasures hardening, semiactive laser seeker, and a programmable autopilot for trajectory shaping. The AGM-114K missile is capable of operating with either pulsed radar frequency or A-Code laser codes for those aircraft equipped with dual code capability. Hellfire II incorporates many improvements over the Interim Hellfire missile, including solving the laser obscurant/backscatter problem, the only shortcoming identified during Operation Desert Storm. Other improvements include electro-optical countermeasure hardening, improved target reacquisition capability, an advanced technology warhead system capable of defeating reactive armor configurations projected into the 21st century, reprogrammability to adapt to changing threats and mission requirements, and shipboard compatibility. The Initial Production Facilitation and Production Qualification Test contract was awarded to Martin Marietta in November 1992. The initial production contract was awarded in May 1993, and the second production contract was awarded in February 1994.

Obviously it does wonders on ..... less armored .... vehicles [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

[ 11-06-2002, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Night Stalker ]

Originally posted by Night Stalker: Z The Hellfire missle carries a conventional shaped charge warhead designed to pierce the armor of main battle tanks. Obviously it does wonders on ..... less armored .... vehicles [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

Doesn't do the soft squishies inside less armored vehicles much good either

The Hellfire is a really awesome anti-tank weapon. Anything less hardened than a Main Battle Tank leaves the remains that you see in the picture.

[Night Stalker]

Oh, even in an MBT, the soft squishies are NOT in an enjoyable position.
R.I.P.

[Larry_OHF]

Originally posted by Gammit: I believe the band Filter said it best... "Hey man, nice shot."

LOL! I was thinking of the same song!

About that part where Magik said that some Americans were thinking of flying over there and standing in front of our men and not letting them attack...I think that they would probably be arrested real quick, brought back to the US to face charges of aiding the enemy or something...and then the armed forces would continue on. Those American civilians would be brought down real quick. Their families may suffer persecution at the home front, and none of it would have changed the course of the pending war. In fact, the people they would be protecting may even shoot them in the back! You never know. Hopefully, with this rumor out...the airlines would be able to stop them from even boarding the planes and not letting them go out there...thus saving everybody alot of trouble.

Just to make my position known about all of this, I am glad for the sake of all those that have suffered at the hands of the terrorists...to see that we are finally physically answering their call. Sitting back and letting them constantly hurt people all over the world from here to Australia cannot be just watched and cried over. If somebody throws a punch, I am going to do my best to give him back one + one.