Massachusetts high court: Same-sex couples entitled to marry

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

So you're telling me, Yorick, that everyone.... Everyone!... that 'experimented' in college is homosexual. By your own logic this is correct.
Let the parade begin, then!
And I certainly didn't contradict myself. I simply admitted that I don't know why people are gay, but have already ruled out without any doubt the idea that it is a choice.
I also find it offensive that you repeatedly compare homosexuality as a behavior that can be changed, like alcoholism and pedophelia. You don't seem to understand how these sorts of things work.
And murder? MURDER? Come now, Yorick, you're more intelligent than that. Are you trying to say that murder and homosexuality are based on desires and the key is to control that desire? Please. Homosexual feelings won't just 'go away' if you ignore them. They won't die, either.
As for proof, click here. http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_expr.htm
I will cite below.

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The American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from its list of mental illnesses in 1973. The American Psychological Association followed suit in 1975; the National Association of Social Workers in 1977; the National Psychoanalytic Association finally followed suit in 1991, stating that homosexuality was not a disorder
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Oh, will you look at that! There goes the credibility of comparing homosexuality with alcoholism and the other types of things you described above, valid disorders.
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"The most important fact about 'reparative therapy,' also sometimes known as 'conversion' therapy, is that it is based on an understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and mental health professions. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a 'cure.'

...health and mental health professional organizations do not support efforts to change young people's sexual orientation through 'reparative therapy' and have raised serious concerns about its potential to do harm.
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Groups that oppose the horrific concept of 'conversion'
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According to the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality, (NARTH) the only mental health professional organization that promotes reparative therapy, a number of organizations formed a coalition to oppose reparative therapy. The group includes:

American Academy of Pediatrics
American Counseling Association
American Federation of Teachers
American Medical Association
American Psychiatric Association
American Psychological Association
The Interfaith Alliance
National Association of School Psychologists
National Association of Social Workers
National Association of Secondary School Principals
National Education Association
New Ways Ministries
People for the American Way.
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I could go on...
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In 1991, Gerald Davison, a former president of the Association for the Advancement of Behavior Therapy, argued that conversion therapy is ethically improper and that its existence only confirms professional and societal biases against homosexuality.

The American Academy of Pediatrics published a policy statement in 1993 entitled "Homosexuality and Adolescence" It was critical of any form of reparative therapy. They commented:

Some adolescents are uncertain about their sexual orientation; for them, a "counseling or phychotherapeutic initiative" aimed at clarification might be useful. "Therapy directed specifically at changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation."
"The psychosocial problems of gay and lesbian adolescents are primarily the result of societal stigma, hostility, hatred and isolation."
The statement mentioned that about 30% of "a surveyed group of gay and bisexual males have attempted suicide at least once."
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And the kicker...
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The American Psychiatric Association released a Fact Sheet in 1994-SEP which stated:

There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of 'reparative therapy' as a treatment to change ones sexual orientation. It is not described in the scientific literature, nor is it mentioned in the APA's latest comprehensive Task Force Report, 'Treatments of Psychiatric Disorders (1989)'.

There are a few reports in the literature of efforts to use psychotherapeutic and counseling techniques to treat persons troubled by their homosexuality who desire to become heterosexual; however, results have not been conclusive, nor have they been replicated. There is no evidence that any treatment can change a homosexual person's deep seated sexual feelings for others of the same sex
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There! See? Is that enough for you? I can root around some more if you like...
I don't mean to sound hostile, but you have managed to do something unlikely... You've managed to somewhat offend me. Please don't compare homosexuality with those things... They're really not the same.

Can I say this enough?
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Also in 1998-DEC, the American Counseling Association published an article on reparative therapy. Mary Bart, a former editor of Counseling Today, wrote:

"...in many [reparative therapy] cases, ...purported successes are nothing more than bisexuals who are highly motivated to adopt heterosexual behaviors."
She quoted Bob Barret, past-president of the Association for Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Issues in Counseling (AGLBIC) who said: "In this so-called reparative therapy, I don't think they are changing sexual orientation. I think they are changing sexual identity and sexual behavior. ... In most of the anecdotal evidence, a lot of the 'ex-gays' will say that they still have same-sex attraction, but they don't act on it. And there are plenty of people like me who were married and had a sexual identity and sexual behavior that was heterosexual, but whose sexual orientation is gay." (AGLBIC is a division of the ACA.)
She quoted Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper who helped found Exodus International, the leading organization which tries to develop a heterosexual orientation in persons with a homosexual orientation. He said: "After dealing with hundreds of people, [we] haven't met one who went from gay to straight. Even if you manage to alter someone's sexual behavior, you cannot change their true sexual orientation."

On 1999-JAN-15, the American Psychiatric Association's Board of Trustees "endorsed a position statement at its December meeting that opposes therapeutic techniques some psychiatrists and mental health professionals claim can shift an individual's sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual. The Board acknowledged that there is no evidence that these so-called 'reparative therapies' have any efficacy in converting someone from one sexual orientation to another." 8 The statement points out that "potential risks of 'reparative therapy' are great, including depression, anxiety, and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by a patient." APA President Rodrigo Muñoz, M.D. stated: "There is no scientific evidence that reparative or conversion therapy is effective in changing a person's sexual orientation...there is, however, evidence that this type of therapy can be destructive."
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Are you noticing a pattern yet? And lastly, the results of conversion therapy.
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Many bisexuals have been convinced, during therapy, to confine their relationships to the opposite gender. This is commonly referred to by therapists and Evangelical Christian ministries to gays and lesbians as "leaving the homosexual lifestyle," "changing their homosexuality," "becoming an ex-gay," "set free from the addiction of homosexuality and lesbianism," "seeking freedom from homosexuality," "called...to a new kind of life," "being a recovered gay," "redeem their lives from the pit," etc. Note that their sexual orientation is unchanged; they simply decided to behave differently -- to only become romantically involved with members of the opposite gender.
Some homosexuals have been convinced during therapy to choose celibacy. Therapy promoters generally use the above terms to describe this group as well. Note that their sexual orientation is unchanged; they remain homosexual; they simply decided to not act on their sexual longings -- to not have a sexual partner, and to accept a life of loneliness.
Some homosexuals have completed therapy in a temporary euphoria. They believe that they have changed their sexual orientation. Some are even able to engage in sexual intercourse with members of the opposite gender, by closing their eyes and fantasizing that they are actually making love to a person of the same sex. The belief that they are now heterosexual always, or almost always, fades with time.
Some have entered therapy with great anticipation that they will be able to change their sexual orientation. When it proves unsuccessful: Many become severely depressed. Some of these have attempted or actually committed suicide.
Some have the opposite reaction. They achieve greater self-esteem. They finally realize that they have exhausted all their options; their homosexual orientation cannot be changed. They accept themselves for what they are, and pursue gay/lesbian relationship(s) without guilt.

We have been able to find a few documented case of individuals with a homosexual orientation who report having changed to a heterosexual orientation. Almost all of the cases that we have located turned out to be false leads: the individual later admitted that he/she had not changed their orientation. Many have left the "ex-gay" movement to become an "ex-ex-gays."
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Now I ask you again. Do I need to cite more things? I have a team of psychologists, experts on human behavior, and even some progressive religious people backing me on this.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: So you're telling me, Yorick, that everyone.... Everyone!... that 'experimented' in college is homosexual.

Were homosexual.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: So you're telling me, Yorick, that everyone.... Everyone!... that 'experimented' in college is homosexual.

Were homosexual. [/QUOTE]Bullshit. That's like saying everyone who binge drank in college was an alcoholic or someone who tried LSD once in college was a drug addict. You and definitions, man.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: So you're telling me, Yorick, that everyone.... Everyone!... that 'experimented' in college is homosexual.

Were homosexual. [/QUOTE]Bullshit. That's like saying everyone who binge drank in college was an alcoholic or someone who tried LSD once in college was a drug addict. You and definitions, man. [/QUOTE]Using the definitions I have repeatedly used regarding sexuality, that is what I said. WERE. Illumina wrote "So you're telling me......"
I was not saying anyone that experimented IS homosexual, but WAS while they experimented. Just as someone who was practicing celibacy is celibate while abstaining, and not celibate once having sexual relations. Or just as an adulter is only an adulterer while having an affair.

I've voiced this idea of sexuality quite often in this thread. It's odd that you'd take issue only now.

The reality is, people DO change their sexual preference. How someone is now is not necessarily how they will be in five years. I have said repeatedly, I, a man, had commited, fulfilling relationships with women who WERE (past tense) lesbians. There is a third girl, who I was with for a short time 13 odd years ago, who later became a lesbian (for ten years) and who recently reverted back to hetrosexuality, and dated a friend of mine.

Yet another female friend of mine, decide in her late 20's to initiate a relationship with a woman.

I also work with a woman, who lives in a commited relationship with another woman, yet who periodically leaves it to have relations with men. She defines herself as homosexual, yet she is quite clearly bisexual.

In all of these cases, the womens sexuality were the result of choices. Are you denying my personal experience? Are you calling me a liar? The women I was with were clearly NOT homosexual while I was with them. Yet, move back five years earlier, and you would have found clearly identifiable lesbian women.

What of Ani DeFranco. A leading voice for lesbian women, who ened up marrying her male sound engineer.

For most of us, we are works in progress. We change during our lives. Certain events unlock aspects of our personality. We learn and gain increased ability to make life choices. How we are NOW, is not how we always will be.

Hence, you can only judge a persons sexuality on what they are doing NOW.

If a man is sleeping with a woman, in a loving relationship with a woman. They are hetrosexual. That may change. That may have changed, but NOW irrespective of whatever temptations or desires are in their head, they are hetrosexual.
If a man is sleeping with another man, he is homosexual.

Bear in mind also, the present influences one's perception of the past.

It is very hard to look outside one's current reality. Either looking ahead to health when you're sick, or looking back with accuracy about feelings. You can FORGET how you felt about someone. It is a most odd sensation to remember the love you had for someone.

Meaning, of course a person is going to feel they have "always been this way". How often do people say "it feels like I've always loved you?" Or "it feels like we've always known each other". How often do you pick up with an old friend and feel like you never parted? THe NOW affects the perception of THEN. People feel like they've always been a particular way, yet we change. Sometimes unrecognisably so.

[ 02-20-2004, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[SpiritWarrior]

Hasn't it been proven that we are all actually bisexual by instinctual nature but abstaining from this due to social conditioning?
The evidence presented was almost every species in the animal kingdom.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by SpiritWarrior: Hasn't it been proven that we are all actually bisexual by instinctual nature but abstaining from this due to social conditioning? The evidence presented was almost every species in the animal kingdom.

You make it sound like it's brainwashing. A society is a collection of individual humans. How society develops is humans choices. Human expression through art shapes society for example.

I am in control of how my society develops and what shape it takes in the same way you are. I am not a slave, nor conditioned by "it". Which means, I am not a slave to others expectations and demands.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

No, SpiritWarrior is quasi-right. I don't have any hard evidence like before, but I've heard that as well. People are mentally bisexual... Capable of loving either gender.. But society dictates how that love is expressed, for the most part. Similar to how Yorick seems to feel, I think. So perhaps we've come to a quasi-agreement.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: No, SpiritWarrior is quasi-right. I don't have any hard evidence like before, but I've heard that as well. People are mentally bisexual... Capable of loving either gender.. But society dictates how that love is expressed, for the most part. Similar to how Yorick seems to feel, I think. So perhaps we've come to a quasi-agreement.

But you ignored the reality that people dictate what society is. The control is within YOU Illumina. Don't disempower yourself so much.

[Night Stalker]

But brainwashing is just that, whether done by a "society", a cult, or an individual. Any thought training that goes against an individual's natural tendancies is brain washing.

This isn't always a bad thing, but often it is.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Night Stalker: But brainwashing is just that, whether done by a "society", a cult, or an individual. Any thought training that goes against an individual's natural tendancies is brain washing. This isn't always a bad thing, but often it is.

So you're saying we brainwash ourselves? How does that work? How did I brainwash myself and why did I do it?