Wolves as Endangered Species

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Moni: Interesting because a deer's natural predator would be........a wolf.

.....Or a Mointain Lion, or some Lynx, or several Coyote, or a Bald Eagle, or a Red Tailed Hawk, or even a Bear.


Oh yeah...and a Human with a rifle. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Sir Krustin: quote: Originally posted by Scholarcs: For that reason I believe that we should try and conserve wildlife wherever possible. There are millions, perhaps billions of livestock in the world, and in many species of wildlife only a few remain.

Note that it's illegal to hunt endangered species, and by definition species that are endangered aren't a threat to livestock.

You need a special permit to hunt predators like wolf up here, and there is no season per se. Also, many furbearing animals aren' to be shot - you need to trap them. (Live trapping is popular in many areas up here - for relocation and repopulation)

The basis of conservation is that since man has disturbed the balance by establishing cities and farms, that we must work to maintain the balance through our own efforts. Hunting whitetail and varmint is necessary to maintain the balance when predators have been displaced.[/QUOTE]QUESTION: What's the fastest way to make an endangered species un-endangered?

ANSWER: Have McDonald's start serving it for lunch.

I know I've seen it before, but I cant remember where...someone's Sig I think. Point being...no animal that is raised for profit/food will *EVER* need to worry about becoming endangered. Case in point. Bengal tigers were in danger of being wiped out in Asia. Several of their organs are considered delicasies(SP), and others are said to have medicinal purposes. Problem...they are about to be wiped out by gourmands and spothecaries. Solution...some smart businessman comes along, gathers up a bunch of tigers, buys a large section of jungle, fences it off, and starts farm raising the tigers. Upshot...Tigers are no longer endangered in Asia.

[Timber Loftis]

Nactrafe:

Tigers are endangered. Their population has been thinned to the point that the gene pool is too small for the species to evolve. Left alone, with no predators or interference, it will still fall subject to the genetic drift that affects small populations sooner or later. Same with the Leopard.

Except for zoos and other managed areas where the species is cared for, Tigers will be gone from the face of the planet in 25 years. But, just the other day I saw a nightly news show where they found a dozen tigers hacked up and lying about in various shops on one street in Vietnam. Teeth were sold in one place, oils in a few others, etc etc.

So, the living trophies may live on as some perverse life-under-glass form that allows us to at least view the animal, but for all intents and purposes, it *is* extinct. Poor example, my friend.

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Nactrafe: Tigers are endangered. Their population has been thinned to the point that the gene pool is too small for the species to evolve. Left alone, with no predators or interference, it will still fall subject to the genetic drift that affects small populations sooner or later. Same with the Leopard. Except for zoos and other managed areas where the species is cared for, Tigers will be gone from the face of the planet in 25 years. But, just the other day I saw a nightly news show where they found a dozen tigers hacked up and lying about in various shops on one street in Vietnam. Teeth were sold in one place, oils in a few others, etc etc. So, the living trophies may live on as some perverse life-under-glass form that allows us to at least view the animal, but for all intents and purposes, it *is* extinct. Poor example, my friend. So how come greenpeace or some other animal activist group like Peta don't go there and put a stop to it? Ooops they would be shot, heh guess it is better to bitch, whine and moan in western nations where it isn't likely you will die defending the animals...but where you will probably be inneffective too...

[Sir Taliesin]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: quote: Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: quote: How do groundhogs and porcupines damage property (i.e. what property do they damage that warrants killing them) and how can they endanger livestock in a manner that would put that livestock's life at risk?

THats easy! Groundhogs dig holes in fields and backyards that both people and livestock can step into and break a leg.To my knowledge horses and cows with broken legs arent put into casts, they are put to sleep. WHile people are put in casts, I am willing to bet if you broke your leg in a chuck hole you would want the little rodent dead too. Porcupines can fill a critter up with barbed quills that can get infected and might cause it to die.[/QUOTE]ROFLMAO [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img] - what you mean is "Groundhogs dig holes in backyards that make 'em look bad and that makes owners mad, and it also worries owners that they won't be following their subdivision mowing and yard maintenance rules, so they try to kill the little buggers." Break a leg. HAHAHAHAHa Sorry, let me laugh just a little more.

Oh, and the thing about horses and cows with broken legs being put to sleep - part of the problem wouldn't you say? Besides, they still get sold, at least for "feed" value (which sometimes goes in human-edible products of course).

But really, my take on it is if the farmer was so kind as to let the herd roam about where it could actually step in a groundhog hole (a real rarity these days with more and more cows being raised in AC controlled barns in CA), rather than having them penned in a cage that fits their exact body dimensions for their entire life (yes, this is YOUR food I'm talking about) then I say he's a good enough guy that I don't mind him shooting it when it breaks its leg. [/QUOTE]It seems quite obivous that you have never lived on a farm with a creek running through it. It's not unusual for large farm animals to fall into holes dug by ground hogs, muskrats or even crayfish. When that happens a caluous farmer might drag a suffering cow to the local meat processor, but your talking many hours of suffering. Depending on the time of year when it might happen, you might or might not be able to butcher a carcess before the meat begins to rot or it gets contaminated by flys and such. A Farmer might call the vet, but it may be as much as a day before you can get one to come out (their busy too). You also have to dig the scared and hurt anaimal out of the hole. They will be fighting you the whole time. Remember. they aren't very smart animals. That in itself would be a very taxing and dangerous process. Then after the vet comes and sets the leg (if he or she can set the leg), around the clock care has to be given to that animal. I think most of the time they must be suspended off the ground to keep pressure of the leg, otherwise the whole effort is wasted. It's just no feasible.

Have you taken a dog to the vet lately? Just taking a dog to the vet cost a lot of money. When my Black Lab had a brain seizure, I scooped him up and took him to the vet. 7 or 8 hours later and after a physical exam, blood work and x-rays the vet determined that there was nothing that could be done and that he'd be in this state for the rest of his life, I had him put down. I spent close to $500 just to have him put down. I also lost my Chocolate Lab back in June to an infection. Basically it was the same story. After an exam, blood work and an x-ray the vet told us that we could save her but the surgery would cost $900 dollars and she'd have to stay at the University of Tennessee Animal Hospital for 3-4 days of intensive care around the clock. Her estimated cost for that was an additional $3000. I didn't have that kind of money, so I had her put to sleep. When all was said and done that cost me another $500 dollors. now that was just a dog. How much would it cost to have a cow with a broken leg worked on? I can only imagine!

Most farmers will simply put the beast down to end it's suffering and then go and take care of the ground Hog(s) or muskrats or whatever is causing the problem. I'm not sure what you do about crayfish though.

Farming and Ranching are a business. Most people who do it for a living, barily make ends meet. The lose of a few head of livestock, may be the difference farming and welfare. I have no problem what so ever with a farmer putting down varmits.

Sir T. I had to put my Black Lab Cinder down after her fight with a porcupine. Her eyes were pierced, she had quills waay down in her throat and mouth and snout, it was ghastly. I killed her quikly and cried all the way home.

[WOLFGIR]

Well Hunter, I have seen a wolf and he and his buddies didn´t try to make a meal out of me. Rather he started to "trot" away as I tried to get closer.
*gasp* closer I hear you sigh in desperation, fainting and shaking your heads in disbelief.. But yes, unfortunately he ran off into the woods, and he was no puppy at that either, probably matched my weight..

I didn´t cry wolf!

But I did howl, and one or two wolves out there actually bothered to howl back.
I don´t know about you guys, but I felt great for weeks after that!

Originally posted by WOLFGIR: Well Hunter, I have seen a wolf and he and his buddies didn´t try to make a meal out of me. Rather he started to "trot" away as I tried to get closer. *gasp* closer I hear you sigh in desperation, fainting and shaking your heads in disbelief.. But yes, unfortunately he ran off into the woods, and he was no puppy at that either, probably matched my weight.. I didn´t cry wolf! But I did howl, and one or two wolves out there actually bothered to howl back. I don´t know about you guys, but I felt great for weeks after that!

Your lucky they didn't take a restraining order out on you

[Thoran]

Originally posted by WOLFGIR: Well Hunter, I have seen a wolf and he and his buddies didn´t try to make a meal out of me. Rather he started to "trot" away as I tried to get closer. *gasp* closer I hear you sigh in desperation, fainting and shaking your heads in disbelief.. But yes, unfortunately he ran off into the woods, and he was no puppy at that either, probably matched my weight.. I didn´t cry wolf! But I did howl, and one or two wolves out there actually bothered to howl back. I don´t know about you guys, but I felt great for weeks after that!

I'm envious... I've never seen or heard a wolf in the wild. I have gotten coyotes to howl with me, and that was very cool. I hear rumors wolves have been quietly reintroduced in the Adirondacks, very exciting if it's true.

I have seen bears, lynx, fox, and of course coyotes. The only parts I've seen of any of them is their backsides though. Smart animals avoid humans like the plague.

[ 10-21-2002, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by MagiK: How come no one ever ends up with a pygmy shrew, or a three toed sloth or a skunk as their "power animal" or spirit guide? Why is it always an eagle, a wolf or a bear? Why not a bunny rabbit? or prarie dog? or a opossum? Inquiring minds want to know. Along the same lines, how come no one is ever a diseased moron in their past life? Why is it no one ever gets the super power of swift nasal passage clearing, in the comics? Sorry my first inquiries were serious but I was suddenly struck with a sublime lunacy [img]smile.gif[/img]

Erm...I'm especially fond of Raven;s. They're scavengers, does that count? [img]smile.gif[/img]

And really, I think it might be fun to be the villiage idiot in a past life. It really takes the pressure to perform off.