Views on death penalty - Page 16

Sparhawk · 03-31-2004, 10:10 AM

Hierophant....I think I´ll forego the pleasure of stilletos *LOL* rather steel-tipped boots in size 17 US style *LOL*

And just for the record:

I do not hate the USA...I love the freakin country...but I do try to avoid certain states when vacationing there...simply out of the "hat if " clause.
I love the attitude on the eastern seaboard from N.Y. to Miami...
I just have this "problem" with US presidents playing "muscleman" above the rest of the world when the sad truth is that USA doesn´t even ratify basic human rights themselves.

Timber Loftis · 03-31-2004, 10:43 AM

Size 17? [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img]
*makes note never to pick a fistfight with Sparhawk.*

The U.S. not ratifying Europe's version of "basic human rights" is not the same as not ratifying the rights at all. We simply think Europe goes too far in some areas (and not far enough in others). There are just some (actually pretty minor) differences in our sets of what we consider "basic rights."

Night Stalker · 03-31-2004, 12:10 PM

Size 17?!? [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img]

Andre the Giant Live Again!! So, you're ... 9? 10 feet tall?

Sparhawk · 04-01-2004, 07:45 PM

*LOL* Guys I was talkin about the aussie Prime minister and not myself...I am a 11 in US or 48 in EUR.
Ane Timber...You´re right, but only as far as saying the USA has their own set of rules. I don´t mind that...as long as they don´t run around in the rest of the world and try to cram their shitty morals ( srry the Bush-Growl ) down our throats..............as long as we can´t say HEY to them and make a point of their own babarism.

I f.ex. find the american war in Irak to be a disaster in international politics and though I love to see Saddam removed...it was done on the wrong basis and definetly on USA´s own agenda...Think of the US reaction if Germany invaded France...a soverign state...and did it without any resemblance of support in the rest of the world...WW3 might be knocking then!
But no matter...Irak was also a soverign nation and though Saddam was cruel and bent on mass-destrictive ideas...I don´t see USA talking the fight to north Korea or China?

Timber Loftis · 04-02-2004, 12:19 AM

Sparhawk, we can share shoes.

Though I think my 11 US translated to a 42 or 44 Birkenstock when I recently bought a pair. What? Yes, I wear sandals sometimes.

Regarding your statements about Iraq, I will concede that there were problems with the political decision to go to Iraq. To be wonkish about it, though, I point out that your analogy is flawed because America has good legal arguments that it had a basis for the war. For one, there was a cease fire (not a peace), with conditions in place which were not met, and a statement that states would take all necessary action to enforce those conditions. I'm not saying it's a slam dunk -- but I am saying that going to Iraq was legally defensible, so the Germany/France example is entirely distinguishable.

Oblivion437 · 04-04-2004, 04:17 PM

Sorry to be tardy in the reply, Yorick...

Bryant plead guilty 72 times, or did his counsel? In the US, the person who is the defendant is in many ways a component of the 'defense' and doesn't have to play a direct role in their defense at all. Bryant could very well have sat there, and not said a word the whole time. Lacking a transcript, and knowing full well he's legally retarded according to Australian law, I'm going to assume the lawyer did all the talking, or as much as possible. That's where the buyout angle is. This guy doesn't even seem to realize he's really in prison, this guy doesn't seem to understand much about his situations and environment at all. So when someone says, "The defense (or defence, depending on how you like to spell it) pleads guilty on all counts," I'm suspicious of how much he realized at the time was going on, or how it applied to him. As a person of average or above average or even genius intellect, it's easy to not understand how someone could be so disassociative of their immediate surroundings, but it's very possible, and in Bryant's case, very likely.

If his attorney were then in on some sort of conspiracy (or not, as you said, there's a mountain of evidence and the guy can't even stay coherent well enough to present an alibi) it would be nothing to get the guy to just sit down and take it. Once the defense enters the guilty plea, on all counts at that, there's no trial to have really. It becomes open and shut. The most it will do is reduce sentence, and in his case that couldn't happen. Any lawyer genuinely comitted to his defense would have entered the not guilty plea or the insanity plea, and fought it out from there. They had state records testifying to his state of legal handicap, they could have at least made a foundational case...

Also, how many people were killed? how many wounded? how many shots fired in total and from what weapons? I need specifics... I haven't read nor can I find any data on the various states of the case as it developed, so you're going to have to help me out here. I believe the rifle he used was a semi-automatic sporterized version of an FN-FAL (basically, a hunting rifle) loaded in .308 Winchester, or 7.62X51 NATO, as it's called abroad. The magazines commonly sold for that class of rifle (called a 'third generation' battle rifle in the enthusiast community) held 20 rounds. If more than 20 shots were fired, there would have been a 5-6 second pause between reloads, assuming he were VERY familiar with his weapons, and knew to tape magazines together or wore bandoliers. Given his state of mental health, I seriously doubt that he'd have that kind of foresight. As I understand it, he landed a phenomenal number of headshots in a short period of time, that would have been a challenge for two men wielding that type of rifle, with formal training from the army in its use.

It adds up to a scenario where there were too many bullets, and not enough time to get them all in the air, similar to the Kennedy Assassination, though the audacity, magnitude and scope of that incident far eclipse this one. Not in human lives, but in the sheer strength and power the conspirators must have wielded for it to go as it did.

Sparhawk · 04-04-2004, 07:33 PM

Oblivion...I am totally with you dude...nice speaking up...*SS*

Yorick · 04-05-2004, 03:14 AM

Oblivion, have you heard of Occams Razor? Look it up.

If you are going to sit there and hypothesise nonsense about my country - which has no death penalty, no revolutionary war, no civil war, no slavery, no Ku Kluxx Klan and no paranoid delusions of the scope found in the USA - it would really seem your perception of the world is in serious error.

Go and visit Tasmania at least. Get a feel for the spirit of Australia. We don't have Oaklahoma bombings or Presidents/Prime Ministers getting assassinated. Get a feel for the word "mateship" and "egalitarianism" and see how it works in Australia, before applying your sheltered experience of life in a small corner of American TV reality onto the culture of a country on the other side of the planet.

See ya.

Night Stalker · 04-05-2004, 09:10 AM

Actually, do you understand Occam's Razor, Yorick? For analysis between Oz and the US using that method of logical deduction is not possible. The key element, "All things being equal ..." is missing as you have already shown.

Sparhawk · 04-05-2004, 09:56 AM

I can understand Yoricks frustration about being compared to USA all the time...
I find his arguments about a civil war...KKK...no slavery and so on to be absolute right to the point however...

I look at Europe and see NeoNazis...the battleground for WW1 and WW2 and I see lots of slavery in the past as with USA.

Looking at Aussies...You have the same Neonazis and the same trouble with a war I.e. WW2 with Japaneese agressions...so a bit flawed there!

But...a BIG but...Australia does NOT have a lacking policy on gun control as do USA...and that is one of the biggest mix-ups I've ever seen.

I see people shouting out that death penalty is a way of discouraging people from heinous crimes when a strict gun control would do wonders in that direction.
I am pretty sure that crime in USA would fall about 60% by taking all the guns away from people...sure the NRA would go up in flames...SO WHAT!!!...let them die in the flames and save the innocent and those who might be tempted!

I appologize for the language....my english is not uptodate

[ 04-05-2004, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Sparhawk ]

03-31-2004, 10:10 AM	#151
Sparhawk Quintesson Join Date: June 2, 2001 Location: In the oldest monarchy - Denmark Age: 47 Posts: 1,071	Hierophant....I think I´ll forego the pleasure of stilletos LOL rather steel-tipped boots in size 17 US style LOL And just for the record: I do not hate the USA...I love the freakin country...but I do try to avoid certain states when vacationing there...simply out of the "hat if " clause. I love the attitude on the eastern seaboard from N.Y. to Miami... I just have this "problem" with US presidents playing "muscleman" above the rest of the world when the sad truth is that USA doesn´t even ratify basic human rights themselves. __________________ "Between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the rise of the sons of Arius. There was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world. Hither came Conan, the cimmarian, sword in hand. It is I, his chronicler who knows well his saga. Now let me tell you of the days of high adventure!" "Unleash the Casey!" "Make no mistake, should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be looking at an outcome that will have a finality, that is beyound your comprehension. And you will not counting the days or the months or the years, but milleniums in a place with no doors!"

03-31-2004, 10:43 AM	#152
Timber Loftis 40th Level Warrior Join Date: July 11, 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 11,916	Size 17? [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img] makes note never to pick a fistfight with Sparhawk. The U.S. not ratifying Europe's version of "basic human rights" is not the same as not ratifying the rights at all. We simply think Europe goes too far in some areas (and not far enough in others). There are just some (actually pretty minor) differences in our sets of what we consider "basic rights." __________________

03-31-2004, 12:10 PM	#153
Night Stalker Lord Ao Join Date: June 24, 2002 Location: Nevernever Land Age: 51 Posts: 2,002	Size 17?!? [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img] Andre the Giant Live Again!! So, you're ... 9? 10 feet tall? __________________ [url]\"http://www.duryea.org/pinky/gurkin.wav\" target=\"_blank\">AYPWIP?</a> .... <img border=\"0\" alt=\"[1ponder]\" title=\"\" src=\"graemlins/1ponder.gif\" /> <br />\"I think so Brain, but isn\'t a cucumber that small called a gherkin?\"<br /><br />Shut UP! Pinky!

04-01-2004, 07:45 PM	#154
Sparhawk Quintesson Join Date: June 2, 2001 Location: In the oldest monarchy - Denmark Age: 47 Posts: 1,071	LOL Guys I was talkin about the aussie Prime minister and not myself...I am a 11 in US or 48 in EUR. Ane Timber...You´re right, but only as far as saying the USA has their own set of rules. I don´t mind that...as long as they don´t run around in the rest of the world and try to cram their shitty morals ( srry the Bush-Growl ) down our throats..............as long as we can´t say HEY to them and make a point of their own babarism. I f.ex. find the american war in Irak to be a disaster in international politics and though I love to see Saddam removed...it was done on the wrong basis and definetly on USA´s own agenda...Think of the US reaction if Germany invaded France...a soverign state...and did it without any resemblance of support in the rest of the world...WW3 might be knocking then! But no matter...Irak was also a soverign nation and though Saddam was cruel and bent on mass-destrictive ideas...I don´t see USA talking the fight to north Korea or China? __________________ "Between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the rise of the sons of Arius. There was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world. Hither came Conan, the cimmarian, sword in hand. It is I, his chronicler who knows well his saga. Now let me tell you of the days of high adventure!" "Unleash the Casey!" "Make no mistake, should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be looking at an outcome that will have a finality, that is beyound your comprehension. And you will not counting the days or the months or the years, but milleniums in a place with no doors!"

04-02-2004, 12:19 AM	#155
Timber Loftis 40th Level Warrior Join Date: July 11, 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 11,916	Sparhawk, we can share shoes. Though I think my 11 US translated to a 42 or 44 Birkenstock when I recently bought a pair. What? Yes, I wear sandals sometimes. Regarding your statements about Iraq, I will concede that there were problems with the political decision to go to Iraq. To be wonkish about it, though, I point out that your analogy is flawed because America has good legal arguments that it had a basis for the war. For one, there was a cease fire (not a peace), with conditions in place which were not met, and a statement that states would take all necessary action to enforce those conditions. I'm not saying it's a slam dunk -- but I am saying that going to Iraq was legally defensible, so the Germany/France example is entirely distinguishable. __________________

04-04-2004, 04:17 PM	#156
Oblivion437 Baaz Draconian Join Date: June 17, 2002 Location: NY Age: 38 Posts: 723	Sorry to be tardy in the reply, Yorick... Bryant plead guilty 72 times, or did his counsel? In the US, the person who is the defendant is in many ways a component of the 'defense' and doesn't have to play a direct role in their defense at all. Bryant could very well have sat there, and not said a word the whole time. Lacking a transcript, and knowing full well he's legally retarded according to Australian law, I'm going to assume the lawyer did all the talking, or as much as possible. That's where the buyout angle is. This guy doesn't even seem to realize he's really in prison, this guy doesn't seem to understand much about his situations and environment at all. So when someone says, "The defense (or defence, depending on how you like to spell it) pleads guilty on all counts," I'm suspicious of how much he realized at the time was going on, or how it applied to him. As a person of average or above average or even genius intellect, it's easy to not understand how someone could be so disassociative of their immediate surroundings, but it's very possible, and in Bryant's case, very likely. If his attorney were then in on some sort of conspiracy (or not, as you said, there's a mountain of evidence and the guy can't even stay coherent well enough to present an alibi) it would be nothing to get the guy to just sit down and take it. Once the defense enters the guilty plea, on all counts at that, there's no trial to have really. It becomes open and shut. The most it will do is reduce sentence, and in his case that couldn't happen. Any lawyer genuinely comitted to his defense would have entered the not guilty plea or the insanity plea, and fought it out from there. They had state records testifying to his state of legal handicap, they could have at least made a foundational case... Also, how many people were killed? how many wounded? how many shots fired in total and from what weapons? I need specifics... I haven't read nor can I find any data on the various states of the case as it developed, so you're going to have to help me out here. I believe the rifle he used was a semi-automatic sporterized version of an FN-FAL (basically, a hunting rifle) loaded in .308 Winchester, or 7.62X51 NATO, as it's called abroad. The magazines commonly sold for that class of rifle (called a 'third generation' battle rifle in the enthusiast community) held 20 rounds. If more than 20 shots were fired, there would have been a 5-6 second pause between reloads, assuming he were VERY familiar with his weapons, and knew to tape magazines together or wore bandoliers. Given his state of mental health, I seriously doubt that he'd have that kind of foresight. As I understand it, he landed a phenomenal number of headshots in a short period of time, that would have been a challenge for two men wielding that type of rifle, with formal training from the army in its use. It adds up to a scenario where there were too many bullets, and not enough time to get them all in the air, similar to the Kennedy Assassination, though the audacity, magnitude and scope of that incident far eclipse this one. Not in human lives, but in the sheer strength and power the conspirators must have wielded for it to go as it did. __________________ [img]\"http://www.jtdistributing.com/pics/tshirts/experts%20copy.jpg\" alt=\" - \" />

04-04-2004, 07:33 PM	#157
Sparhawk Quintesson Join Date: June 2, 2001 Location: In the oldest monarchy - Denmark Age: 47 Posts: 1,071	Oblivion...I am totally with you dude...nice speaking up...SS __________________ "Between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the rise of the sons of Arius. There was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world. Hither came Conan, the cimmarian, sword in hand. It is I, his chronicler who knows well his saga. Now let me tell you of the days of high adventure!" "Unleash the Casey!" "Make no mistake, should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be looking at an outcome that will have a finality, that is beyound your comprehension. And you will not counting the days or the months or the years, but milleniums in a place with no doors!"

04-05-2004, 03:14 AM	#158
Yorick Very Mad Bird Join Date: January 7, 2001 Location: Breukelen (over the river from New Amsterdam) Age: 53 Posts: 9,246	Oblivion, have you heard of Occams Razor? Look it up. If you are going to sit there and hypothesise nonsense about my country - which has no death penalty, no revolutionary war, no civil war, no slavery, no Ku Kluxx Klan and no paranoid delusions of the scope found in the USA - it would really seem your perception of the world is in serious error. Go and visit Tasmania at least. Get a feel for the spirit of Australia. We don't have Oaklahoma bombings or Presidents/Prime Ministers getting assassinated. Get a feel for the word "mateship" and "egalitarianism" and see how it works in Australia, before applying your sheltered experience of life in a small corner of American TV reality onto the culture of a country on the other side of the planet. See ya. __________________ http://www.hughwilson.com

04-05-2004, 09:10 AM	#159
Night Stalker Lord Ao Join Date: June 24, 2002 Location: Nevernever Land Age: 51 Posts: 2,002	Actually, do you understand Occam's Razor, Yorick? For analysis between Oz and the US using that method of logical deduction is not possible. The key element, "All things being equal ..." is missing as you have already shown. __________________ [url]\"http://www.duryea.org/pinky/gurkin.wav\" target=\"_blank\">AYPWIP?</a> .... <img border=\"0\" alt=\"[1ponder]\" title=\"\" src=\"graemlins/1ponder.gif\" /> <br />\"I think so Brain, but isn\'t a cucumber that small called a gherkin?\"<br /><br />Shut UP! Pinky!

04-05-2004, 09:56 AM	#160
Sparhawk Quintesson Join Date: June 2, 2001 Location: In the oldest monarchy - Denmark Age: 47 Posts: 1,071	I can understand Yoricks frustration about being compared to USA all the time... I find his arguments about a civil war...KKK...no slavery and so on to be absolute right to the point however... I look at Europe and see NeoNazis...the battleground for WW1 and WW2 and I see lots of slavery in the past as with USA. Looking at Aussies...You have the same Neonazis and the same trouble with a war I.e. WW2 with Japaneese agressions...so a bit flawed there! But...a BIG but...Australia does NOT have a lacking policy on gun control as do USA...and that is one of the biggest mix-ups I've ever seen. I see people shouting out that death penalty is a way of discouraging people from heinous crimes when a strict gun control would do wonders in that direction. I am pretty sure that crime in USA would fall about 60% by taking all the guns away from people...sure the NRA would go up in flames...SO WHAT!!!...let them die in the flames and save the innocent and those who might be tempted! I appologize for the language....my english is not uptodate [ 04-05-2004, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Sparhawk ] __________________ "Between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the rise of the sons of Arius. There was an age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world. Hither came Conan, the cimmarian, sword in hand. It is I, his chronicler who knows well his saga. Now let me tell you of the days of high adventure!" "Unleash the Casey!" "Make no mistake, should you choose to test my resolve in this matter, you will be looking at an outcome that will have a finality, that is beyound your comprehension. And you will not counting the days or the months or the years, but milleniums in a place with no doors!"

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