Massachusetts high court: Same-sex couples entitled to marry

[Timber Loftis]

Ah, now we are into the nature vs. nurture embroglio. That one's never winnable.

[SpiritWarrior]

I agree that homosexuality is not a choice. I'll point out though that it is not uncommon for a straight man for instance, to suddenly become attracted to other blokes.

This seems to be more of an 'awakening' of suppressed sexuality however and in essence that person would actually be a suppressed bisexual at the brunt of society-induced conditioning i.e unconscious fear.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: [QB] Yes, it's hypocritical of me to feel this way. Yes, I admit it. But people don't CHOOSE to be gay, Yorick. They're that way for reasons nobody really understands.

Except people who've studied the situation, couselled gays, come out of the lifestyle, or are able to look at hard truths without fearing labels being thrown at them.

Many people understand why individuals are the way they are. You are making out like homosexuals are these mysterious "other humans" that no-one understands.
That is certainly not the case. Try having commited relationships with a couple, as I have, and then tell me you "don't understand".

Do you truly believe that one day, a guy might wake up, in his early teens perhaps, and say to himself, "You know what? I think I'd like to condemn myself to a lifetime full of being the subject of hatred, confusion, and prejudice. I want to limit my romantic possibilities. I want people to try to 'save' me. I WANT TO BE GAY!" No. Sorry. Doesn't happen.

Of course not. That is not what I mean when I say sexuality is a choice. You've oversimplified and misunderstood the entire notion of choosing sexuality.
Does a happily married man wake up one day and say "You know what? I'd like to condemn myself to destroying my kids lives, my wifes life and live a period of deception, lies, self disgust and heartache by having an affair today."

That doesn't happen either.

The choices involved in choosing hetrosexuality or homosexuality, choosing faithfulness or affairs, celibacy or swinging, are subtle combinations of reaction decisions, decisions about which thoughts to entertain, decisions about which actions to move towards.

Spiritwalker, you contradicted yourself. You said you disagree that people choose their sexuality, then say most men entertain gay notions at some point.
People who end up homosexual are ones that choose for watever reason (they are myriad) to entertain those thoughts. Ones who choose hetrosexuality get rid of them.

In the nature vs nurture debate (there is none, it's a combination) of course some people will have greater tendencies than others. Just as some kids are born with drug addictions they fight all their life for example. We all have strengths and weaknesses and predispositions. All that means is some choices are harder to make than others, not that the choices are nonexistent.

The only reason... the only reason!... that a homosexual might want to become heterosexual is because of society. That's all. If people didn't hate and misunderstand and condemn homosexuals, they'd be HAPPY with the way they are!

Pre-industrial revolution, the only way for a person to have a child would be with a woman. Having sex with a woman, to the point of being able to father her child makes the person hetrosexual. That is such a scenario in which a person may make the choice. Feeling that they want to create a child that is half them, half their lover.

In any case, I'm not condemning a homosexual. A person who decides to help a homosexual change desire is not condemning them either. I love and accept gays, welcome them in my church whether they're practicing or not. Love a person, and accepting their actions into your own behavioural choices are very different things.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: [QB] Yes, it's hypocritical of me to feel this way. Yes, I admit it. But people don't CHOOSE to be gay, Yorick. They're that way for reasons nobody really understands.

Except people who've studied the situation, couselled gays, come out of the lifestyle, or are able to look at hard truths without fearing labels being thrown at them.

Many people understand why individuals are the way they are. You are making out like homosexuals are these mysterious "other humans" that no-one understands.
That is certainly not the case. Try having commited relationships with a couple, as I have, and then tell me you "don't understand".
*****
I'm stating that I don't know why people are gay, but I know it isn't a choice.
*****

Do you truly believe that one day, a guy might wake up, in his early teens perhaps, and say to himself, "You know what? I think I'd like to condemn myself to a lifetime full of being the subject of hatred, confusion, and prejudice. I want to limit my romantic possibilities. I want people to try to 'save' me. I WANT TO BE GAY!" No. Sorry. Doesn't happen.

Of course not. That is not what I mean when I say sexuality is a choice. You've oversimplified and misunderstood the entire notion of choosing sexuality.
Does a happily married man wake up one day and say "You know what? I'd like to condemn myself to destroying my kids lives, my wifes life and live a period of deception, lies, self disgust and heartache by having an affair today."

That doesn't happen either.

The choices involved in choosing hetrosexuality or homosexuality, choosing faithfulness or affairs, celibacy or swinging, are subtle combinations of reaction decisions, decisions about which thoughts to entertain, decisions about which actions to move towards.

*****
You can't compare the choice to have an affair or not with homosexuality. It doesn't work that way. If a homosexual person were to repress their desires they'd be very unhappy indeed, perhaps suicidal.
*****

Spiritwalker, you contradicted yourself. You said you disagree that people choose their sexuality, then say most men entertain gay notions at some point.
People who end up homosexual are ones that choose for watever reason (they are myriad) to entertain those thoughts. Ones who choose hetrosexuality get rid of them.

In the nature vs nurture debate (there is none, it's a combination) of course some people will have greater tendencies than others. Just as some kids are born with drug addictions they fight all their life for example. We all have strengths and weaknesses and predispositions. All that means is some choices are harder to make than others, not that the choices are nonexistent.

The only reason... the only reason!... that a homosexual might want to become heterosexual is because of society. That's all. If people didn't hate and misunderstand and condemn homosexuals, they'd be HAPPY with the way they are!

Pre-industrial revolution, the only way for a person to have a child would be with a woman. Having sex with a woman, to the point of being able to father her child makes the person hetrosexual. That is such a scenario in which a person may make the choice. Feeling that they want to create a child that is half them, half their lover.

*****
No, it doesn't. Many homosexuals, when coerced (perhaps through 'therapy' or 'religion' or 'being saved') into having sex with someone of the opposite gender, will fantasize about their gender of preference, or perhaps just do it and get it over with. Sleeping with the opposite sex doesn't make you heterosexual any more than 'experimenting' with the same sex makes you homosexual.
*****

In any case, I'm not condemning a homosexual. A person who decides to help a homosexual change desire is not condemning them either. I love and accept gays, welcome them in my church whether they're practicing or not. Love a person, and accepting their actions into your own behavioural choices are very different things. [/QUOTE]You can never change what you desire. Not without causing some serious damage. You can change the way you act, but your desires remain. This can cause inner turmoil and all that lovely stuff.

[ 02-19-2004, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Illumina Drathiran'ar ]

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: You can never change what you desire. Not without causing some serious damage. You can change the way you act, but your desires remain. This can cause inner turmoil and all that lovely stuff.

"You"? Speak for yourself. YOU may not be able to change YOUR desire, but *I* can. I have done repeatedly. I am no better or worse than you, so unless your are telling me your an intellectual minnow with no self control and no ability to commit in a relationship or avoid raping a woman you desire, or becoming an obese glutton, or gambling addict, you CAN control desire.

You say serious damage occurs from controlling or changing desire? The following result from an inability to control or change desire:

Alcoholism
Paedophilia
Rape
Murder
Gambling addiction
Internet addiction
Extra marital affairs
Obesity and gluttony
Procrastination
Laziness
Slothfulness
Drug addiction
Workaholism
Inability to have a commited relationship
Inability to get over an ex-partner.

Controlling or changing ones desires is a common truth found in every major religion on earth. It is the principal that underlies laws and punishment, society, and human survival. To simply survive we are presented with numerous events that require us to change or control our desire.

So speak for yourself. YOu may be unable to do this, but plenty of us can and do.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: [QB] I'm stating that I don't know why people are gay, but I know it isn't a choice.

You just contradicted yourself. You don't know. You don't know it isn't a choice. You have presented no studies, no personal experience, nothing that indicates you KNOW at all. I on the other hand have offered my own experience in choosing hetrosexuality - something I keep choosing - the experiences of the ex-lesbians I had relationships with, and presented a study. I know why I am hetrosexual, and it is by choice. I wasn't born with these desires, they were things I allowed and chose to develop, entertain and act on.

You take away too much control from yourself. You have more power over yourself than you realise, yet if you hold your current ethos, will never achieve the mind over matter sucess necessary for certain sucesses.

You can't compare the choice to have an affair or not with homosexuality. It doesn't work that way. If a homosexual person were to repress their desires they'd be very unhappy indeed, perhaps suicidal.

You really think there is a difference? So a married man falls in love with his secretary. For his marriage to survive, he must surpress his desire for that woman. Yes, he too could become suicidal if he fails to manage his brain and control his subconscious. You present weakness. You present humans as though they are controlled by whims, fancies and dreams. I present humans as beings who consciously move toward that which they aim for. Controlling subconscious, desire, love, fear and emotions. You limit the human mind. I show you potential.

To perform, I must control my urges not to run off stage, I must control my fear. I must control ego so it doesn't get hubrisly huge, I control the desire not to sleep with any shit-hot fan that shows interest, if my life is to not go down the toilet. I must supress urges to take drugs to keep me awake, or wake me up after 2 hours sleep, or calm my nerves. I must supress the desire to punch a music industry person that steals money from me.

If I were to follow your advice - your reality - my life would be an impotent, ineffective, tide-following mess.

No, it doesn't. Many homosexuals, when coerced (perhaps through 'therapy' or 'religion' or 'being saved') into having sex with someone of the opposite gender, will fantasize about their gender of preference, or perhaps just do it and get it over with.

Show me the studies that show that assertion to be true or retract it as personal invention.

Sleeping with the opposite sex doesn't make you heterosexual any more than 'experimenting' with the same sex makes you homosexual.

If you have sex with a man you are homosexual. If you have sex with a woman you are hetrosexual. If you have no sex, you are celibate. If you have sex with a child you are a paedophile. If you are married and sleep with someone else you are an adulterer.

Desire is nothing. Action is everything. Just as it is pointless having fantasies about being celibate, unless you are not having sex, you are not celibate. A person may have homosexual desires, but until they act on those, they are not homosexual.

[Chewbacca]

Alcoholism Paedophilia Rape Murder Gambling addiction Internet addiction Extra marital affairs Obesity and gluttony Procrastination Laziness Slothfulness Drug addiction Workaholism Inability to have a commited relationship Inability to get over an ex-partner.

I certainly hope the "desires" on this list are not being compared to the desire for serious consensual intimate relationship (whether as dating or as marriage) with a person of the same sex.

[Chewbacca]

I object to homosexuality being repeatedly refered to as a lifestyle!


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lifestyle&r=67

life·style also life-style or life style ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lfstl) n. A way of life or style of living that reflects the attitudes and values of a person or group: “It was a millionaire's lifestyle on the pocketbook of a hairdresser” (People). *** Usage Note: When lifestyle became popular a generation ago, a number of critics objected to it as voguish and superficial, perhaps because it appeared to elevate habits of consumption, dress, and recreation to categories in a system of social classification. Nonetheless, the word has proved durable and useful, if only because such categories do in fact figure importantly in the schemes that Americans commonly invoke when explaining social values and behavior, as in Rachel Brownstein's remark that “an anticonventional lifestyle is no sure sign of feminist politics, or indeed, of any politics at all.” Fifty-three percent of the Usage Panel accepts the word in Bohemian attitudes toward conventional society have been outstripped and outdated by the lifestyles of millions of young people. An even greater numberfully 70 percentaccepts the word in Salaries in the Bay Area may be higher, but it may cost employees as much as 30 percent more to maintain their lifestyles, where the context requires a term that implies categorization based on habits of consumption.

[Chewbacca]

Homosexuality is not a choice and if evidence is demanded to prove this, then I equally demand evidence that it is.

I wont go digging around just yet for the old post here on this topic where Moraine offered an excellent paper on the subject but I will add this.

Homosexuality has been traced to every culuture and society in all of recorded history. It occurs in nature as well beyond the scope of human affairs. Evidence that it is not a choice but as natural a condition as hetrosexuality.

Also considering that very few homosexuals consider it a choice. Many I know consider themselves to be blessed by God and/or Goddess that way. Not only natural but divinely so.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: Homosexuality is not a choice and if evidence is demanded to prove this, then I equally demand evidence that it is. I wont go digging around just yet for the old post here on this topic where Moraine offered an excellent paper on the subject but I will add this. Homosexuality has been traced to every culuture and society in all of recorded history. It occurs in nature as well beyond the scope of human affairs. Evidence that it is not a choice but as natural a condition as hetrosexuality. Also considering that very few homosexuals consider it a choice. Many I know consider themselves to be blessed by God and/or Goddess that way. Not only natural but divinely so.

I didn't single homosexuality out Chewbacca, so I'm not sure why you did. I said sexuality is a choice. Hetro and homo.

I presented myself as evidence for that.

SO I presume you're presenting yourself then?

You are telling me you plopped out of the womb with sexual desires for women did you? You were kissing girls as soon as you were crawling?

Or did perhaps you sexuality develop over time?

I reject any sort of notion that gender is anything more than a PHYSICAL distinction - seeing as we are all the same sex in the womb - and any notion that we plop-out as fully formed sexual beings.