HOW YA LIKE US NOW ?!?!?!?!?

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Killing Spree: Why does everybody instantly ASSUME I'm male?! Geez...

Sorry, Killing Spree. It's the name. Seems to more masculine than feminine, and since I am an old lady I still have some innate bias that leads me to expect females to have female names. Silly, really, 'specially since my own name is genderless, and people used to think I was male as a consequence.

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Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Mirac Honorguard: 2. You're NOT right about having the right to celebrate the killings we done now in Afghanistan. Did you see that part on the tv when those sick Arabian people were celebrating because of what just happenend back then at the WTC?? That was disgusting We shouldn't do the same as those sickos, there is no celebration after war, only death.

I wouldn't use the word "celebrate" personally. I feel satisfaction that steps are being taken to try and achieve justice for those who lost their lives. IMHO this is certianly not the LONG-TERM solution to this issue, but in the short-term we have to take the necessary steps to ensure that the perpetrators of the crime are brought to justice. The Taliban were given an entire month to provide bin Laden to the US to stand trial and they didn't. They were given NUMEROUS warnings and persisted in stalling and political games.

Even if he wasn't guilty of the actual crime bin Laden is guilty of inciting religious hatred and jihad against innocent people with the statement he released today, where he praises the attacks of Sept 14. Unfortunately, his status in the Islamic world is such that tens of thousands of idealistic fundamentalist Islamic youth with no prospects of improving their lives will hear him and clutch on his words as their one hope on this earth.

Having said all that, I wouldn't be celebrating. It's an unpleasant task, but unfortunately it had to be done. I'd be focusing on coming up with a LONG-TERM solution to this problem - looking at the causal factors that drive young men to give up their lives (rightly or wrongly) to give up their lives for a cause that they believe is right and doing something about them. Lives are terrible things to waste - for all of us.



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[Tuor]

Right I haven't read the whole thread-just most of the first page, so I'm not referring to anyone specifically these are just my own thoughts (and believe me no-one on God's earth will make me change my opinion)

I'm a little concerned about the triumphalism, flag waving and chest beating that is going on about last night's attacks. Going to war is not something we ought to be celebrating. We are currently looking at MASSIVE civil unrest in Pakistan and demonstrations against the US and Britain all over the Arab world-Indonesia, Iran and places like Italy and Tokyo.

If that goes a few steps further it's a war between Christianity vs Islam we don't want that. Thst is why there have been extensive efforts made to keep Islamic states on side and their leaders are geerally supportive of the air strikes.

This is not a good state of affairs, we don't want to be turning bin Laden into a martyr but the problem we have is we can't just let the attacks on America be ignored (note I did not say unpunished).

I don't think the Taliban would ever give him up-they offered to try him under Islamic law-I'm sure that would'nt have been a fair trial and I'm sure it would never have been accepted, nor would the Taliban have offered any more concessions.

Such a trial would have no affect on the terrorist training camps in Afghanistan any way, we'd just have had thousands more willing to die for the cause.

I think we should be bombing Afghanistan's military targets, unfortunately civilians are going to be killed, it's tough but it happens. It truly sickens me when people condemn one atrocity like the WTC but then turn round and say 'But you can't take an innocent life by bombing the perpetrators, we should try to negotiate a peaceful solution' by doing that you invite every terrorist group to bomb your country and virtually promise not to retaliate-you become a soft target.

That type of appeasement was tried in 1939 and look what happened then.

The point is diplomatic efforts have been made to resolve this peacefully, most of the Islamic world plus importantly Russia and China are on the US' side and we've been promised bombing raids and the like will NOT run into the holy month of Ramaddan (apologies if I've spelled it wrong) so the US are being sympathetic to the Muslim world.

We can't invade Afghanistan without suffering hundreds of thousands of casualties, this war will be against terrorist and military targets, if you invade by ground far more civilans will die in indiscriminate shelling and tank assaults. Noone wants that, the current method of war is not cowardly it's sensible no one wants to die for their country or make someone die for their country.

The best solution is to ultimately set up a new government in Afghanistan- not sponsored by the US, with economic aid etc so they can return to their relative former glory of 20 years ago before the Russians invaded them.

I hope the Afghan people can live in the peace and prosperity they deserve, it just won't ever happen with the taliban in place.


Right now that's out of the way I sincerly hope two other things come out of this, 1)The US manage to destroy the opium trade (heroin) in Afghanistan which the Taliban economy is based on.
and 2) Every other terrorist group in the world including the IRA, UDLA, Eta and every other bunch of murdering bastards we know about is going to be hunted down with the FBI's help. I for one would be extremely pleased if Mr Bush (who has handled this whole thing rather well IMHO) bans fund raising for terrorist groups in the USA-he can start with the IRA.

[Mirac Honorguard]

Originally posted by Memnoch: I wouldn't use the word "celebrate" personally. I feel satisfaction that steps are being taken to try and achieve justice for those who lost their lives. IMHO this is certianly not the LONG-TERM solution to this issue, but in the short-term we have to take the necessary steps to ensure that the perpetrators of the crime are brought to justice. The Taliban were given an entire month to provide bin Laden to the US to stand trial and they didn't. They were given NUMEROUS warnings and persisted in stalling and political games. Even if he wasn't guilty of the actual crime bin Laden is guilty of inciting religious hatred and jihad against innocent people with the statement he released today, where he praises the attacks of Sept 14. Unfortunately, his status in the Islamic world is such that tens of thousands of idealistic fundamentalist Islamic youth with no prospects of improving their lives will hear him and clutch on his words as their one hope on this earth. Having said all that, I wouldn't be celebrating. It's an unpleasant task, but unfortunately it had to be done. I'd be focusing on coming up with a LONG-TERM solution to this problem - looking at the causal factors that drive young men to give up their lives (rightly or wrongly) to give up their lives for a cause that they believe is right and doing something about them. Lives are terrible things to waste - for all of us.

I totally agree with you Memnoch, statisfaction would be the right word, 'cause those bastards need to be punished for what they did

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http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/mirac
I'd be Mirac, mighty mage of er... uhm.. er.. - Mirac Honorguard
Fellow Table Dancer of the Jerome's Table dancer group
Spell formulater of the IW peace-keeping force

[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Fljotsdale: Liliara, I probably know as much as any christian about Jesus, and maybe more than most who claim to be christian but have never even read the gospels, let alone the entire bible. (Not saying this applies to YOU! ) I have the greatest respect for Jesus, for his teachings and for the way he lived his life. So why should I NOT use him as an example? Especially to one who IS a christian, and presumeably trying to live by Jesus example? Can YOU imagine Jesus treating an animal - even an unclean one - in the way Larry did? I do not claim that Jesus would not kill anything - but he sure as hell wouldn't torture it first by pouring chlorine and peroxide into it's burrow. Furthermore, since you believe the bible, you will know that God and Jesus do NOT kill innocent people, so to state that the West's action in Afghanistan is the work of god (as you seem to have done), is mistaken, to say the least. No hard feelings, Liliara, but I don't see why I should not express my opinion as clearly as you express yours! Nor should I be restricted from using an example of my choice if it fits. I did not say Larry should not use killing the rat as an example, even though I found it reprehensible, and said so. Let's not fall out just because we disagree, ok?

My 2c? You're both so bloody-minded, strongly opinionated and can be somewhat tactless about expressing your opinions, serenely confident in your righteousness and in the other's wrongness. I personally don't have a problem with it unless you start shouting profanities at each other, which I'm sure will not happen, given that both of you are VERY good at exercising self-control, right?

It's actually quite funny listening to you two bang heads at each other. Make sure you don't get headaches for no reason. The two most difficult things to do on the internet are: 1) admit that you can't change the other person's point of view; and 2) accept that failing to change the other person's point of view does NOT mean you have lost the argument.

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[Memnoch]

Originally posted by Tuor: Right I haven't read the whole thread-just most of the first page, so I'm not referring to anyone specifically these are just my own thoughts (and believe me no-one on God's earth will make me change my opinion) I'm a little concerned about the triumphalism, flag waving and chest beating that is going on about last night's attacks. Going to war is not something we ought to be celebrating. We are currently looking at MASSIVE civil unrest in Pakistan and demonstrations against the US and Britain all over the Arab world-Indonesia, Iran and places like Italy and Tokyo. If that goes a few steps further it's a war between Christianity vs Islam we don't want that. Thst is why there have been extensive efforts made to keep Islamic states on side and their leaders are geerally supportive of the air strikes. This is not a good state of affairs, we don't want to be turning bin Laden into a martyr but the problem we have is we can't just let the attacks on America be ignored (note I did not say unpunished). I don't think the Taliban would ever give him up-they offered to try him under Islamic law-I'm sure that would'nt have been a fair trial and I'm sure it would never have been accepted, nor would the Taliban have offered any more concessions. Such a trial would have no affect on the terrorist training camps in Afghanistan any way, we'd just have had thousands more willing to die for the cause. I think we should be bombing Afghanistan's military targets, unfortunately civilians are going to be killed, it's tough but it happens. It truly sickens me when people condemn one atrocity like the WTC but then turn round and say 'But you can't take an innocent life by bombing the perpetrators, we should try to negotiate a peaceful solution' by doing that you invite every terrorist group to bomb your country and virtually promise not to retaliate-you become a soft target. That type of appeasement was tried in 1939 and look what happened then. The point is diplomatic efforts have been made to resolve this peacefully, most of the Islamic world plus importantly Russia and China are on the US' side and we've been promised bombing raids and the like will NOT run into the holy month of Ramaddan (apologies if I've spelled it wrong) so the US are being sympathetic to the Muslim world. We can't invade Afghanistan without suffering hundreds of thousands of casualties, this war will be against terrorist and military targets, if you invade by ground far more civilans will die in indiscriminate shelling and tank assaults. Noone wants that, the current method of war is not cowardly it's sensible no one wants to die for their country or make someone die for their country. The best solution is to ultimately set up a new government in Afghanistan- not sponsored by the US, with economic aid etc so they can return to their relative former glory of 20 years ago before the Russians invaded them. I hope the Afghan people can live in the peace and prosperity they deserve, it just won't ever happen with the taliban in place. Right now that's out of the way I sincerly hope two other things come out of this, 1)The US manage to destroy the opium trade (heroin) in Afghanistan which the Taliban economy is based on. and 2) Every other terrorist group in the world including the IRA, UDLA, Eta and every other bunch of murdering bastards we know about is going to be hunted down with the FBI's help. I for one would be extremely pleased if Mr Bush (who has handled this whole thing rather well IMHO) bans fund raising for terrorist groups in the USA-he can start with the IRA.

Tuor, this is an awesome post, dude.


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[Tuor]

[skywalker]

The best way to deal with osama bin laden (no capitals on his name, that would show respect), is to capture him alive. Take away all his religious books and paraphernalia, try him in court like Milosivich (sp) and "if" guilty, put him in prison (solitary confinement, preferably) for the rest of his life. No contact with the outside world, no holy books for comfort. To kill him will not solve the world's pain and will make him a martyr. The same goes for all terrorist leaders and their upper level subordinates.

Mark

(If this has been said earlier, sorry, but this thread is too much to read and there is too much anger to go through in one sitting.)

[Fljotsdale]

Originally posted by Liliara: Cloudy, I understand and respect your view, however, Flots has continually put down anyone who does not believe as she does, and I was not flaming her, just drawing a line that must be drawn.

Hey?!
When have I ever 'put down' people 'who don't believe as I do'? I enjoy debate, Liliara. Debate is not putting people down, so far as I have ever known.

Oh, and Liliara, I have not just studied the bible - I was a practicing christian myself for 25 years, so I have a pretty good idea of the way christians feel, and also of how far from the ideal shown to us by Jesus that we fall short.
Whatever happened, for example, to 'love your enemy'? And 'love... does not rejoice over unrighteousness...'. We christian countries are not doing much loving of enemies, are we? We are not even loving the innocent victims, both ours and theirs, if we make the memorial of our innocent victims the funeral pyre of their innocent victims.
And rejoicing over the death of people, whether innocent or guilty, is actually rejoicing over unrighteousness, because we are acting with violence instead of with justice.

Just my opinion, of course. Is that a 'put down' If you think so - good. This one was intended to be. Please - just remember I have as much right to my opinion as you do to yours, so please stop trying to gag me just because you don't like what I say.

And my name is Fljotsdale, not Fljots, please.


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Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 10-08-2001).]

[Cloudbringer]

Having done most of my 'opinion posting' near the begining of this thread, I know a lot of things were in fact covered there and/or some people clarified their early posts a few pages later.

I'd love to ask that anyone coming in now, please try to read the whole thread!? Because I'm seeing some reactions based on only seeing part of the thread and that's just going to get more controversy going because many people here have changed their tone or explained more fully what it was they actually meant in early posts. Now a new post based on a partial reading shows up near the end of a thread and voila! You get misunderstandings from the begining and now all the people only reading the end, react to the misunderstanding .. bad cycle... ok.. it is way past my bedtime and I'm probably reasoning in circles here. Hope I've made some sense!

Goodnight/morning all!

SleepyCloud

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."