Wolves as Endangered Species

Originally posted by Attalus: LOL, jumping in late on a thread like this is usually a good way to get your head bitten off, but, here goes, from a biology major. Dogs and wolves and coyotes are, biologically, the same species. They can, and do, interbreed. From a population standpoint, wolves and coyotes are breeds of dogs. From an evolutionary point of view, dogs are a breed of wolves. Ranchers hate coyotes because they maim and kill stock, and on one notable occasion that I winessed, a litter of puppies and their mother. I shall take no position further than that.

You big wussy! hehe
Since when did you hesitate to be controvertial?

EDIT: for Clarity. For those who might get upset that I called Attalus a name [img]smile.gif[/img] I was pretty sure he would understand that it was a joke and in no way serious.

[ 10-21-2002, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Attalus]

LOL, no offense taken. But, I've been married too long to risk my neck when female rage is in evidence. Besides, you called LoA and me "nutjobs" in another thread.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Sir Krustin: Weren't you the one that mentioned a friend breeding hybrid? Which is it? Do they have them in captivity (and by implication, domesticated) or not? Which brings us back to my point...where are the hybrids? quote: Originally posted by Magik: I said I knew of a guy (not a friend) who cross bred Wolves and Dogs. Just because he used their sperm to fertilize a bitch doesnt mean the wolves were domesticated. They were just in captivity. As for where they are...They are for sale in Minnessotta, and are pretty expensive last I heard which was years ago

[/QUOTE]I also have seen "wolf/dog hybrids" for sale. It was several years ago at a local flea market. The guy claimed they were "wolf/german shephard" hybrids. They were very cute and certainly "appeared" to have some wolf in them, but that could just as easily have come from a Malumut or Husky. And they weren't very expensive (maybe $25.00 each).

He also claimed they made EXCELLENT guard dogs (well, D'UH) and great pets. I expressed my concern about having a wolf-hybrid around young children and he said there was nothing to worry about because the "family heirarchy" is genetically ingrained in the wolf. Since they would consider our children "one of the pack", they would defend them against any attacks.

That's the problem. What happens if one of my boys is playing with a neighbors child, and the other kid knocks my boy down?????

All of sudden, Wolfie would be all over the other kid.

OK...that's probably an exaggeration. I just didn't feel like taking ANY chances with a dog that could become potentially dangerous - especially around kids.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: I did a search on biggest beaver at google (because i just can't believe that their ever was a 10 foot beaver and i'm from Canada!) and this is the first thread i found at google. Left wingers might be interested in this...

This was great!
Workers of the world untie!
[img]graemlins/thewave.gif[/img]

[Timber Loftis]

[quote]Originally posted by Sir Krustin:

Read this slowly and understand it: JUST BY EXISTING WE INFLUENCE NATURE! .

Be the beast lest we become the beast.

Look, because (1) we influence nature + (2) we have a brain that can reason (well, most of us) = (3) we ought to at least consider and mitigate our actions.

[Timber Loftis]

[quote]Originally posted by Thoran:

The whole "humans are not a part of nature" rubbish is another environmentalist mantra. What exactly IS nature then. Humans are as much a part of the natural world as any other species. We live by the same rules and die by the same rules (as the example you've provided illustrates contrary to your argument). Everything that we are is a part of the world, everything that we've made. Our evolution is an achievement of nature, not an abberation. Our long term survival doesn't depen on us "getting back to nature"... it depends on us as a species understanding that our survival now depends on more than the narrow rules written into an individuals base drives (survive, procreate, dominate...), there needs to be another set that does the same for societies and can somehow be communicated to and bought into by the individuals. (conserve, manage, coexist...) There's some hope, the radical environmentalists are a necessary evil... they raise the awareness of all to the problems that we SHOULD be thinking about, and in doing so are performing a valuable service. Survival of the fittest does indeed apply across species as fully as within a species. If two similar species are competing for the same resource... who will win?

Don't forget, while you're sitting around waiting for somebody to create and communicate this other set of rules (which I would argue you have a duty to help create if you're bright enough to realized the need), the different needs the human species-being has: beauty, art, love, as well as food, sex, and toilet. These are variables in the utilitarian equation of how we manage the planet we've got.

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: quote:

I also have seen "wolf/dog hybrids" for sale. It was several years ago at a local flea market. The guy claimed they were "wolf/german shephard" hybrids. They were very cute and certainly "appeared" to have some wolf in them, but that could just as easily have come from a Malumut or Husky. And they weren't very expensive (maybe $25.00 each).

If I remember correctly, the guy I knew of had Husky/wolf mixes.

He also claimed they made EXCELLENT guard dogs (well, D'UH) and great pets. I expressed my concern about having a wolf-hybrid around young children and he said there was nothing to worry about because the "family heirarchy" is genetically ingrained in the wolf. Since they would consider our children "one of the pack", they would defend them against any attacks.

That's the problem. What happens if one of my boys is playing with a neighbors child, and the other kid knocks my boy down?????

All of sudden, Wolfie would be all over the other kid.

The guy said the same thing about the one he had as a pet for yis 4 year old daughter. Said it made a great protector but you had to becareful who did what to whom, however he made sure that neighbor kids were included in the "pack"

OK...that's probably an exaggeration. I just didn't feel like taking ANY chances with a dog that could become potentially dangerous - especially around kids.[/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: (3) we ought to at least consider and mitigate our actions.

Are you saying that we do not? or are you saying we do not to your satisfaction?

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: quote: How do groundhogs and porcupines damage property (i.e. what property do they damage that warrants killing them) and how can they endanger livestock in a manner that would put that livestock's life at risk?

THats easy! Groundhogs dig holes in fields and backyards that both people and livestock can step into and break a leg.To my knowledge horses and cows with broken legs arent put into casts, they are put to sleep. WHile people are put in casts, I am willing to bet if you broke your leg in a chuck hole you would want the little rodent dead too. Porcupines can fill a critter up with barbed quills that can get infected and might cause it to die.[/QUOTE]ROFLMAO [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img] - what you mean is "Groundhogs dig holes in backyards that make 'em look bad and that makes owners mad, and it also worries owners that they won't be following their subdivision mowing and yard maintenance rules, so they try to kill the little buggers." Break a leg. HAHAHAHAHa Sorry, let me laugh just a little more.

Oh, and the thing about horses and cows with broken legs being put to sleep - part of the problem wouldn't you say? Besides, they still get sold, at least for "feed" value (which sometimes goes in human-edible products of course).

But really, my take on it is if the farmer was so kind as to let the herd roam about where it could actually step in a groundhog hole (a real rarity these days with more and more cows being raised in AC controlled barns in CA), rather than having them penned in a cage that fits their exact body dimensions for their entire life (yes, this is YOUR food I'm talking about) then I say he's a good enough guy that I don't mind him shooting it when it breaks its leg.

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Timber Loftis: (3) we ought to at least consider and mitigate our actions.

Are you saying that we do not? or are you saying we do not to your satisfaction? [/QUOTE]I'm saying that the "because we exist we influence nature" argument is a cop-out. It's a true enough statement, but unless you argue it gives you an excuse to run amuck, why mention it? Yes we influence nature. Now what? Still back where we started the discussion.