Massachusetts high court: Same-sex couples entitled to marry

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

I don't know now, actually... I've been 'involved'.. *really* involved, twice in my life.. But none of those relationships were as stable as the one with my dearest friend. This might be saying something about platonic friendship, or it could be saying I need to set my standards in men a bit higher. Either way, from what I've observed friendships are commonly as strong as or stronger than romantic relationships.. I love my friend. We passed the Train Test ("Hell, I'd push her off the train tracks to save her life") which, in my opinion, might need updating soon... But I digress.
Another important fact is that balance in life is important, and it's also important to have a healthy sexual relationship with someone else... That's probably the one thing you can't get from a platonic friend.
("We're 'married', sure. There's something she misses, something I miss, and something missing from this relationship. And it's all the same thing!")

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: Theoretically, that may be possible. But why would two hetero people of the same gender want to marry? Since they are attracted to the opposite gender, there doesn't seem to be a logical reason for them to want to marry someone of the same gender...unless they are bisexual and decide they love their same-gender partner more than the opposite gender one. If that is the case, then the law in Massachussetts would benefit them, but laws against polygamy would prevent them from marrying both partners.

To get a green card.

Anyhow, who says only homosexuals are attracted to their own gender? Women notice and appreciate other women. Men find other men attractive. What is attractive to another hetrosexual man, is often different to what is attractive to women.

Homosexuality is acting on that attraction in a sexual sense. Manifesting the admiration, affection and connection, in a physical, sexual expression.

Men insecure about their sexuality are ones who cannot express that another man is good looking, or that they have love for them, without feeling threatened by it.

Fellas: YOU ARE NOT 'GAY' IF YOU FIND ANOTHER MAN ATTRACTIVE. This is normal whether gay or straight. [/QUOTE]It wouldn't make any sense for a hetero male to marry another male just to get a green card. For one thing, their "marriage" will NOT be recognized nor accepted by the Federal Government. Second of all, if the hetero male is attracted to the opposite sex, he would try to marry a female so that his marriage would be endorsed by our gov't - thus making him eligible for the green card.

The ONLY situation I can see where they would deny their true feelings is if the person seeking the green card was homosexual instead of heterosexual. In that case, I can see them entering into a "marriage of convenience", even though they aren't sexually attracted to their partner.

And the bottom line is that sexual or romantic attractions are the ONLY reasons that people normally seeek to get married.

Love IS expressed in many different ways and on many different levels, but romantic love or sexual attraction are the only two forms of love that lead the people involved to enter into marriage with the other person.

Sibling love is not the same. Even though it may be stronger, you would not want to marry your sibling. The same goes for a roommate. My college roommate is one of very best friends and I treasure his friendship deeply....but I still don't want to marry him.

As one of my college professor so bluntly put it, the main purpose of Marriage is to "legalize" sex. There will always be a portion of society that will disapprove of non-marital sex. But that same portion would be one of the first to ask "When will we hear the pitter-patter of little feet" immediately after the couple get married.

As mentioned by Timber, marriage also grants certain benefits to both partners that they did not have seperately.

You keep asking "Why does love have to lead to marriage?" It doesn't. Two people can love each other deeply and live together forever without marrying - and be just as committed to each other as if they were married. But that isn't the issue being discussed here.

The fact is that some levels of love DO create a desire between the partners to make a formal commitment to each other and to have that commitment recognized by the state and federal government (as well as their friends and family). Right now, homosexuals cannot be granted that public acknowledgement of their love, nor do they recieve the aforementioned legal benefits that hetero couples do when they become married. All the gay/lesbian community is asking is for the playing field to be "leveled" so that it is equal and fair to them as well as to the hetero couples.

As I said waaaaaaay back in my opening post, I don't agree with homosexual marriages based on my religious prejudice....but other than that....I honostly cannot think of one logical reason to deny them that right.

[Yorick]

But what are you calling marriage Cerek? What is it defined as in your mind?

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Yorick: But what are you calling marriage Cerek? What is it defined as in your mind?

In this case, I'm talking about the union of two people as recognized by the laws of the state. That's also the specific type of marriage the gays and lesbians are seeking.

You can have a legal marriage without the religious ceremony (as performed by the Justice of the Peace).
You can have a religious ceremony that isn't "legal" (such as the handjoining ceremony performed by Illumina)
And you can have a religious ceremony that is also recognized as legally binding by the state (the "normal" type wedding that most of us envision).

The gays and lesbians want their unions and marriages to be "legal" and recognized by the laws of their state so that they and their partners will then be eligible for all the benefits mentioned in this thread thus far that hetero couples are automatically granted with their Marriage Certificate.

Of course, there IS another issue that hasn't been addressed ytt, but is certain to become an issue if gay/lesbian marriages ARE allowed and recognized by the various states...and that is the 4th example of "marriage" that is known as "common law marriage".

In effect, it says that if a man and woman live together as a couple for a set period of time (usually around 7-9 years), then they will be considered "married" by the state, even without a Marriage Certificate.

Many homosexual couples have been together for more than the required amount of time, so they could claim they should be granted "common law" marriages based on the length of their relationship.

[Yorick]

This appeared on netscape.com today.

http://webcenter.health.webmd.netsca...tentSRC_nsmain

In a wide-ranging interview with the 200 subjects, Spitzer sought to ascertain how homosexual people felt they were prior to therapy, and how heterosexual they felt they had become afterward. Some results: More than 80% of males and 60% of females indicated they were sexually attracted to members of the same sex often or very often as teenagers; 60% of males and 40% of females say they were never or rarely attracted to the opposite sex as teenagers. Before therapy, 99% of males and 88% of females say they looked with lust or daydreamed about having sex with a member of the same sex. After therapy, 32% of the males and 5% of the females reported same-sex fantasies or daydreams. After therapy, 29% of males and 63% of females reported no or only minimal homosexual feelings, including attraction, lustful thoughts, fantasies during masturbation, or homosexual behavior. "We conclude that, contrary to conventional wisdom, some highly motivated individuals using a variety of change efforts can make substantial change in multiple indicators of sexual orientation and achieve good heterosexual function," Spitzer says.

[Chewbacca]

From the article linked in the previous post:

Paul Appelbaum, MD, president-elect of the APA who reviewed the report, cited several shortcomings in the study, especially the fact that it consisted of self-reports from a sample that is not representative. "Convincing is not how I would characterize the findings," said Paul Appelbaum, MD, president-elect of the APA who reviewed the study. "The data presented doesn't prove anything in a scientific sense. The responses were coming from a non-representative sample of people who were self-referred in a way that was completely subjective. Much of the data is retrospective, with all of the pitfalls of trying to recall how one felt or behaved 10 or 15 years earlier." What should a young person do if he believes he is gay and is distressed? "Find someone to talk over the distress who is coming from a nonjudgmental perspective and would be willing to help figure out the most comfortable way to lead your life," Appelbaum says. "A confused teenager should not seek therapy with a therapist who is absolutely committed to affirming either a gay identity or a heterosexual identity, but who is willing to explore the most comfortable way to lead their life."

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_exod.htm

Browse the site. Look around.
People who want to 'convert' gays deserve a quick smack upside the head, in my *oh* so humble opinion.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_exod.htm Browse the site. Look around. People who want to 'convert' gays deserve a quick smack upside the head, in my *oh* so humble opinion.

Thanks! I love religioustolerance.org! One of the best informational sites on the web!

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Chewbacca: From the article linked in the previous post:

Made you look

[SpiritWarrior]

Hehe, I just read the news where Bush said he found the SF situation "troubling" and is trying to work on his gay-marriage ban. All views aside on the issue, I don't think gay people deserve to have someone like him make the decision on it since he is A) incompetent and B) homophobic.

[ 02-18-2004, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: SpiritWarrior ]