On Cowardice

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: No flames, Nachtrafe, just sadness that you are perceiving me and what I am saying in that way.

Dio! How else am I supposed to percieve it? I try, really I do to give you the benefit of the doubt. But when something is blatantly arrogant, how else is it supposed to be percieved? Step outside yourself for just a moment, and go back an reread some of your posts. What is the underlying tone in most of them the last few days? They are intentionally provocative(and in the bad sense, not the good), they have a defenite tone of 'looking down the intelectual nose', and some are just downright flamebaits.

That's not to say that they aren't intelligent, or eloquent. But remember Counselor...not everyone you meet has formal debate training, and long hours of experience. Saz reminded me of that very thing today. I do it too.

FWIW...I'm not trying to start a fight. I'm just trying to provoke(in the good way ) you to think. I sincerely apologize for the antagonistic tone of my own posts the last few days. I have been more than a bit out of line myself. BTW...for everyone else reading this, this goes out to you too. Many apoogies. I wont make any excuses, but I will try very hard to be better.

------------------
"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by skywalker: Nachtrafe said: "Most of the current slinging against Bush is based on silly opinions formed by and in the news media." His ability to speak confidently before the camera has nothing to do with the News Media. Did you see him speak at a Press Conference yesterday? The one with Helmut Kohl? I saw ALL of it - not little sniping bits cut by the media. He could not form sentences without tripping over his tongue...he needs to be coached in Public Speaking. A big job for the President is being the Cheerleader for America. He needs to be at least a "good" orator, that is a way to gain respect from other nations. He used the same old tired Oaths he's been spouting since September 11th. He also showed a level of anger about leaks that was a little embarrassing for the leader of the USA. I believe the leak he was so "over the top" angry about was the bit about "We are 100% sure we will be attacked by terrorists if we hit Afghaniatan." Was this really the leak? No duh...it sounds like a common sense statement to me. I'm not going to tangle with you about Clinton VS Bush, but people bashed Clinton while he was President. I'm merely doing the same while Bush is in office. I am an American not a blindly following sheep, I observe and speak about how I perceive things. I may be wrong, but if I believe in what I say at least I think I'm right. Mark

Yeah, I saw that press conference. And yes, I thought he was a bit stiff. BUT, speaking as one who has done A LOT of public speaking, its not that easy. As for his being passionate...I disagree. Clinton was an awesome public speaker. Very polished and professional. And you know what? I didn't trust him a bit. Bush is obviously passionate, and he speaks in very plain language. Being a plain man, I can identify with him on many more levels. I sort of instinctively distrust a slick speaker. Reminds me of a used car salesman.

I'm not a sheep either. I dont agree with Bush 100% and I never have. But I agree with him on mostly everything. And truly, I dont want to get into Bush/Clinton either.

Just for clarification, nothing in what I said was ever meant as personal. The slinging comments were never, ever directed at you persoanlly Mark. They were general statements against detractors. I know you are one, but please dont interpret it as an attack or baiting. It wasn't.

"I may be wrong, but if I believe in what I say at least I think I'm right. "

Preach on!!! I firmly believe in what I'm saying too. And in its intrinsic rightness. Nice to know that, at least in that much, we totally agree.

------------------
"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[Yorick]

Originally posted by G'kar: I know alot of satanists, They adhere to a philosophy of personal responability, and an ethic that prohits harm to another except in self-defense. It is a shame that a minority would use a label, commit horrific acts, and the consequences are the real followers carry the burden of false persecpition. They dont believe in the devil, dont commit evil as a ritual act, but as human individuals, i am sure some have failings. Some christians have done horrible things, molested children, bombed doctors, ect. I dont advocate all other christians change their label of their belief system because of the actions of a few who do.

G'kar I'm done talking about this. I can't change anyones limited concepts, I can only express what I know, myself. If someone isn't open-minded enough to change their concepts in light of new information, there is nothing I can do.


------------------
I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown: I know that civilian law is thrown out the window in times of war. I was using the law of Murder simply as an example regarding the nature of INTENT.

Yeah...its kind of unfortunate, true. I saw your point about Intent, but if you are going to talk about Murder as it relates to Wartime, you still should do it in the proper frame of reference.

------------------
"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"

[Yorick]

I will add G'kar that what gets me is you've swallowed the lie. Satan's biggest deception is that he doesn't exist. Who better to promote the concept that he doesn't exist than the very church in his name. I'm aware Satanists "don't believe there is a Satan". That was the line the head of the Satanic Church in Australia took, and you know what? They lost a heap of credibility and faded back underground.

I have one question for the Satanists who say there is no Satan. Why call yourself a Satanist at all? Why not simply use another name other than one who "Christians invented and they can keep him". Would avoid a heap of confusion if you ask me. But then the "Angel of light" is all about confusion, deception and lies.

Please keep your insults to yourself in your next response G'kar. You're claiming additional knowledge to me, and I'm claiming additional knowledge to you. At the moment it's looking like a "nyaa nyaa so there" sort of discussion and does nothing for eithers argument.

------------------
I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on....

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 10-11-2001).]

[Nachtrafe]

Originally posted by 250: US fighter: "Rogue that! yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeha!"

[Hayashi]

What is cowardice? Found this article in the Washington Post (exerpt below):

Bin Laden has also given the Taliban military equipment, training and some of his best fighters for the battle against the Northern Alliance, the opposition coalition trying to topple the Taliban. When bin Laden first moved to Afghanistan from Sudan, he gave the fledgling Taliban militia $3 million at a critical time in the country's civil war, and he was closely involved in the Taliban's subsequent ascent to power. The Taliban's protection and shelter for bin Laden have been a key reason U.S. intelligence and military forces have not been able to locate him. Members of the Taliban often travel in bin Laden's retinue, according to U.S. officials. They say U.S. intelligence has information that he often uses decoy caravans when he switches locations and frequently gathers women and children around him, increasing the possibility that a U.S. attack on him could result in the killing or wounding of innocent civilians. (Emphasis mine). Bin Laden's entourage is small, 25 people or fewer, sources said. He has no headquarters, though U.S. intelligence identified the location of a house he no longer uses. Satellite photography of the Afghan mountains presents even experienced photo interpreters a daunting task because, as one senior official put it, "One Afghanistan mountain looks like every other Afghanistan mountain." U.S. intelligence has few, if any, good human sources in Afghanistan, and information that comes through various tribes or factions generally turns out to be unreliable. Said one senior administration official, "It's a treacherous country with treacherous people who buy and sell loyalties." U.S. intelligence agencies believe bin Laden's videotaped remarks released Sunday shortly after the U.S. airstrikes began were recorded at least several days earlier. The tape apparently had been pre-positioned with the Qatar-based al-Jazeera news network with instructions or an agreement that it should not be made available until the bombing began.

URL of the article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2001Oct10.html

Doesn't particularly brave to me, if he has to resort to using women and children to protect himself. Looks like he's not in a hurry to go to paradise either, despite the "70 virgins feeding him honeyed grapes". Maybe it's because he doesn't really believe that himself?

Yorick and G'kar,

I agree, this line of discussion is counter-productive for all concerned. Not to cast *any* aspersions on *anyone* (reread if necessary) but Yorick is approaching this from both his own personal observations and from a strong Christian background. I respect that even if it does frustrate me to no end when it *appears* that his mind is closed to any new info (*NO* insult intended, just my own observation) which counters his own exposure to horrific acts perpetrated upon innocents by psychotic sickos using the Freedom of Religion we have in order to try to get away with perversions! It frustrates me, not because I think he's a close-minded individual (rather, I think he is *not* close-minded at all! Rather the opposite) but because of his exposure to these individuals who have corrupted the laws and *any* religion to try and justify a sickness of their warped little minds! and the consequent and understandable unwillingness to delve further to attempt to discover if they are the exception rather than the rule. (reread, please. That came out rather convoluted)

If I had in my power to undo the pain and torment the young woman has gone thru at the instigation of her demented father and his insane cronies, be assured I would. In a heartbeat and not think twice. But I don't. If I could bring to light the illegalities and insanity of some of these other individuals, I would (and have done on a much smaller basis where I live--but they weren't satanists, just kids trying to claim power by summoning demons--completely different and got way out of control). All I can do is as I already do--take action when I can, research unceasingly, and then share what I learn with others.

Again, Yorick, I mean absolutely *no* disrespect to either your beliefs, your feelings or your experiences.

G'kar,

It would seem that even tho we approach the topic at hand by a slightly different path, we essentially see it in a similar light. I find myself completely in agreement with Yorick's assertion that these individuals who call themselves satanists are evil-doers and ought to be held accountable (actually, I want to use much stronger language, but I don't think the mod quad would allow it!). They perpetrate the worst of crimes and seek to justify it by claiming it is part and parcel of their worship system. Bullshit!

It would seem you have had similar exposure to satanists as I (tho more so, as my personal links are relatively new) and have found through your own research of the topic that Satanism is not the black, subversive Path betrayed both in horror movies and in the press when one of these groups goes for the scare factor. Again, I am not condoning satanism or any other religion as good or bad, right or wrong. *ALL* religions, indeed all beliefs even of the secular sort, can be and routinely are corrupted by individuals seeking personal power and gain. This has happened throughout history to all the mainstream religions I can think of, which is why there are so many denominations!

Yorick is right--this line of discussion needs to be ended. We all three have very valid points, I feel, even if they do differ.

From my seat, I say to you both, I greatly respect you both--and even more so since this discussion.

Garnet

Oh my gosh! I just realized that awful (ranking) pic is off my posts! Yippee!!!!!!

::sorry, it just bubbled out. I'll try to jump up and down more quietly ::

Garnet

Originally posted by Yorick: I will add G'kar that what gets me is you've swallowed the lie. Satan's biggest deception is that he doesn't exist. Who better to promote the concept that he doesn't exist than the very church in his name. I'm aware Satanists "don't believe there is a Satan". That was the line the head of the Satanic Church in Australia took, and you know what? They lost a heap of credibility and faded back underground. I have one question for the Satanists who say there is no Satan. Why call yourself a Satanist at all? Why not simply use another name other than one who "Christians invented and they can keep him". Would avoid a heap of confusion if you ask me. But then the "Angel of light" is all about confusion, deception and lies. Please keep your insults to yourself in your next response G'kar. You're claiming additional knowledge to me, and I'm claiming additional knowledge to you. At the moment it's looking like a "nyaa nyaa so there" sort of discussion and does nothing for eithers argument.

This isnt an arguement, I am sharing the held beleifs of people, that dont deserve ridicule or disrespect. I am akin to satanists by certain creeds and certain practices, but not by name.
I have known of ritualist cult behavior by indivduals or small sects that call themselfs satanists. One of my best friends is a police consultant on the topic, and he is a satanist. His consultant work has gone along way to seperateing the truth from the fiction in official investigations to the point that the police handle such acts as "cult acts" not "satanic". I have practiced satanic rituals with a coven on three seperate occasions. I know a doctor who is a satanist, among others.

The wiccan religion has a horned male diety. This is a similiar archtype that revolves around the core of satanic belief. Back in pagan europe, the christian church perveted the horned one into what christians call satan, and ascribe ultimate evil to him. They stole a basic archtypal image from the pagans of those times as part of a long history of intolerance towards other relgions and sa drive to convert those pagans to christianity. Satanist call themselves satanist to steal back what is really thiers. Affirming that satan is realy an archtype of the masculine side of diety, the primal power of lust and other things. Witches have been percieved as evil for sometime, but They still call themselves witches in spite of it.

Yorrick you must forgive my tone in the anology about open minded-ness, but I think a little open-mindedness is neccassary to see past the limited actions and beliefs of some that you have expirienced.