Massachusetts high court: Same-sex couples entitled to marry

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Wait a minute. You're saying that two hetero people of the same gender should be allowed to be married as well? That's all?
Well, that's different. I say let them do whatever makes them happy.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: Wait a minute. You're saying that two hetero people of the same gender should be allowed to be married as well? That's all? Well, that's different. I say let them do whatever makes them happy.

See this is the logical conclusion I reached. If two homosexual men can marry, why not two hetrosexual men.

Which leads us to a situation where male-female marriages in effect cease to exist as anything special or significant in society.

Which then leads to my line of thinking that a man and woman who decide to procreate together should be encouraged by society to do so, and remain together for the duration of their life.

The reasons being the mental health of the children, and the implications that mental health has on society.

I do not believe that discrimination is an absolute evil. We discriminate against people who murder because of the desires we have for society. We discriminate against people who push drugs on kids for the same reason.

The issue I think, regarding family building encouragement, is making sure that it is positive encouragement, not negative restriction.

How that works I'm not sure.

I do care about peoples mental health, and I do care that a functioning society works to keep problems to a minimum where possible.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: Wait a minute. You're saying that two hetero people of the same gender should be allowed to be married as well? That's all? Well, that's different. I say let them do whatever makes them happy.

Theoretically, that may be possible. But why would two hetero people of the same gender want to marry? Since they are attracted to the opposite gender, there doesn't seem to be a logical reason for them to want to marry someone of the same gender...unless they are bisexual and decide they love their same-gender partner more than the opposite gender one.

If that is the case, then the law in Massachussetts would benefit them, but laws against polygamy would prevent them from marrying both partners.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: font color=deepskyblue>Theoretically, that may be possible. But why would two hetero people of the same gender want to marry? Since they are attracted to the opposite gender, there doesn't seem to be a logical reason for them to want to marry someone of the same gender...unless they are bisexual and decide they love their same-gender partner more than the opposite gender one. If that is the case, then the law in Massachussetts would benefit them, but laws against polygamy would prevent them from marrying both partners.

To get a green card.

Anyhow, who says only homosexuals are attracted to their own gender? Women notice and appreciate other women. Men find other men attractive. What is attractive to another hetrosexual man, is often different to what is attractive to women.

Homosexuality is acting on that attraction in a sexual sense. Manifesting the admiration, affection and connection, in a physical, sexual expression.

Men insecure about their sexuality are ones who cannot express that another man is good looking, or that they have love for them, without feeling threatened by it.

Fellas: YOU ARE NOT 'GAY' IF YOU FIND ANOTHER MAN ATTRACTIVE. This is normal whether gay or straight.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Originally posted by Yorick: quote: Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: font color=deepskyblue>Theoretically, that may be possible. But why would two hetero people of the same gender want to marry? Since they are attracted to the opposite gender, there doesn't seem to be a logical reason for them to want to marry someone of the same gender...unless they are bisexual and decide they love their same-gender partner more than the opposite gender one. If that is the case, then the law in Massachussetts would benefit them, but laws against polygamy would prevent them from marrying both partners.

To get a green card.

Anyhow, who says only homosexuals are attracted to their own gender? Women notice and appreciate other women. Men find other men attractive. What is attractive to another hetrosexual man, is often different to what is attractive to women.

Homosexuality is acting on that attraction in a sexual sense. Manifesting the admiration, affection and connection, in a physical, sexual expression.

Men insecure about their sexuality are ones who cannot express that another man is good looking, or that they have love for them, without feeling threatened by it.

Fellas: YOU ARE NOT 'GAY' IF YOU FIND ANOTHER MAN ATTRACTIVE. This is normal whether gay or straight. [/QUOTE]Almost all people are mentally bisexual, though most prefer one gender over another. Society conditions people against bisexuality and drives them to seek out a mate of the 'appropriate' gender, be it a straight or same-sex partner. This is why some people might question their sexuality even later in life when they meet someone... People have chemistry with each other and whatnot. It's just the way it is.
And Yorick, I couldn't have put it better myself... Macho and homophobic behavior has got to stop, and it makes me sick. It gives the entire gender a bad name besides.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: Almost all people are mentally bisexual, though most prefer one gender over another. Society conditions people against bisexuality and drives them to seek out a mate of the 'appropriate' gender, be it a straight or same-sex partner. This is why some people might question their sexuality even later in life when they meet someone... People have chemistry with each other and whatnot. It's just the way it is. And Yorick, I couldn't have put it better myself... Macho and homophobic behavior has got to stop, and it makes me sick. It gives the entire gender a bad name besides.

I realise you were at least in part agreeing with me, but I am disagreeing with certain elements of your post. Sorry old chum.

"Mentally bisexual" is not how I would put it at all. Attraction to both sexes doesn't make you bisexual. Why even go there? Why is attraction and love automatically linked to sex? Sex is not the only result of being attracted to someone. A university lecturer may be attractive to you, and thus you pay more attention to their words. One presidential condidate may be more attractive to you, more pleasing to the eye, and may get your vote, wooed as you were by his charisma and trustworthy demeanour.

I do not believe society drives anything out. I think these are choices individuals make. I personally choose hetrosexuality. I choose not to entertain thoughts that will lead to homosexual circumstances, adulterous circumstances, or any others that contradict the moral code I have decided to accept and incorporate into my life as a means towards beneficial existence.

I do want to create a life - a child - with a person with whom I can conceive it by expressing love physically. This alone is an incentive enough to manage my eyes, my brain, my imagination, my conversations, and my signals. I make a substancial decision about the long term hopes for my life that affect the shorter term ones.

This is part of life. A heterosexual married man has to do this if they are to remain happily married. They must become in a sense "unattracted" to all except one woman, so they are not forgetting their marriage vows with every stunning bombshell that enters their life.

They make a long term commitment, that overrides immediate desires. Such as dwelling on the "what if". Or meeting that lingering stare, or crying on her shoulder about that argument with the spouse the night before, or taking that extra drink, or staying back late all those nights to "meet the deadline".

Finally, I agree that homophobic behaviour is disgusting and should stop, but Macho behaviour? Live and let live. Plenty of homosexual men are macho. They like men! Macho, New Age guy, New lad, who cares? All men. Live and let live.

[ 02-17-2004, 02:15 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[Timber Loftis]

Quoting Illumina:

Almost all people are mentally bisexual, though most prefer one gender over another. Society conditions people against bisexuality and drives them to seek out a mate of the 'appropriate' gender, be it a straight or same-sex partner.

I respectfully disagree. For some of us, the same gender (or the other gender) is simply repugnant. I've found this true for myself (regarding other men) and for some gay folks I've known.

However, Yorick is right in saying that

Men insecure about their sexuality are ones who cannot express that another man is good looking, or that they have love for them, without feeling threatened by it.

However, this is not dispositive of the issue. I can know and express that another man is good looking, but it is more envy (as in, damn I wish I looked like that) than it is an attraction to their physicality. I also can express love for other men, but it is on a clearly Platonic/friend level. And, I am not one to have shied from considering the possibilities of bi-sexuality or homosexuality regarding myself. I certainly went through a phase where I tried to assess my sexuality on a completely unbiased level.

However, one time I awoke to find myself being "accosted" (to put it nicely) by another man who was trying/offering to do sexual things to me. My immediate reaction was one of "flight or flight" -- and I fled. Because of this, I believe that on a base instinctual level I am affirmatively hetero. In fact, vehemently so.

Erm..... other than the possibility I am a lesbian in a male's body, that is. [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]

[Yorick]

Why did you say "but" on a platonic/friend level.

Again, true love is equated with sexual expression.

Two twin girls may love each other more than even their respective spouses. Is their love any less worth than the love they have for their spouses simply because it is not romantic or expressed sexually?

"Oh that's a different kind of love" Is it? Are they not friends? Are they not confidants? DO they not invest in each other, spend time, energy, choosing to move forward in relationship with one another?

Perhaps we need a thread exploring what love actually is. So many here seem intent on putting platonic love on some lesser plane.

I love my brother. I would take a bullet for him. I would die for him. He is the person on this planet I most admire, respect and care for.

Does that make me gay? No. Is it any less than the love I had for my wife? No. Yet it is "platonic" love. We are friends, my brother and I.

And yes he's a damn fine looking guy. And no, I don't say that in an envious sense, and yes I would and do give him a big hug.

Why attempt to put that on a different level to the love of two gay guys, or romantic lovers?

Love is love. How it's expressed and manifested is all that differs.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric: I have no problems with you as an individual . In fact, I had considered you a friend beginning shortly after my first venture into the General Discussion forum. However, I have since been informed that I am not a "true friend" because of my disagreement with you on filesharing.

To you it is a disagreement on an issue. To me, you support, endorse and participate in the destruction of my livelihood, expression, career and passion. To me it is so much more than an issue, yet you respond with

I've told you twice already that my opinion won't change and I'm not interested in continuing the discussion

Closing your eyes and your inbox to an issue that's seriously hurting me and many like me. Producers, Artists, Musicians, Retailers, Engineers, Songwriters, Arrangers. All dependent on album sales. The lack of even an attempt to empathise was quite shocking.


But whatever. I'm over the discussion. Too stressful and creativity sapping to focus on.

[ryaldin]

Originally posted by Yorick: Love is love. How it's expressed and manifested is all that differs.

I have to disagree there. The 'expression' of love between two people (of whatever gender) that is romantic (not necessarily sexual) is a coalescing of a partnership that has no equal. It is a union that is intended to be all encompassing, where your thoughts and ideas can be comfortably shared and supported by your partner, and that everything in your lives, is now addressed as a team, not as individuals. This is not to say that your individuality is sacrificed, but rather, that as individuals, you have created an entirely new entity.

'Platonic' friendships can have similar roles in your life, and often enough the friends who are closest to you, are the ones with whom you have spent the most difficult periods of your life. But the size and meter of such a relationship is not nearly so all-encompassing (in my mind) as that of a 'romantic' union.