Wolves as Endangered Species - Page 13

10-20-2002, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric:
As you said, the only part of my original post that was directed at you was the first paragraph.

I never said that.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric:
I have also had several of my "objectionable posts" reviewed by 3rd parties, who did not feel they were inflammatory or insulting. So I guess we are at a stand-off there.

I suppose that just depends on which viewpoint you are taking...people who would see your side of your argument as being right would naturally think it OK to be derogatory against someone you believe opposes you.
For you to say "several" of your "objectionable posts" lets me know that you know exactly what I am talking about so stop trying to sugar coat it and make yourself appear to be blameless.
I don't need you to like me, I just won't stand for having words put into my mouth or being told how I feel when you don't know...like I said before you have me walking on eggshells where conversing with you is concerned and I'd rather just not converse with you than to continue playing games that I don't play.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric:
.....but I felt like I needed to address this issue publicly to explain my posts and answer your questions.

I didn't ask you any questions. Just stop talking to me and we can get along fine.

Ronn_Bman · 10-20-2002, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moni:
Just stop talking to me and we can get along fine.

Wow!

Moni, that's pretty harsh towards Cerek, don't you think?

Maybe a smiley or something in there... [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

[ 10-20-2002, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

Attalus · 10-20-2002, 08:25 PM

LOL, jumping in late on a thread like this is usually a good way to get your head bitten off, but, here goes, from a biology major. Dogs and wolves and coyotes are, biologically, the same species. They can, and do, interbreed. From a population standpoint, wolves and coyotes are breeds of dogs. From an evolutionary point of view, dogs are a breed of wolves. Ranchers hate coyotes because they maim and kill stock, and on one notable occasion that I winessed, a litter of puppies and their mother. I shall take no position further than that.

Ronn_Bman · 10-20-2002, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moni:

Have a little respect, please.

I do have respect, for both of you, but what you and Cerek have going on somewhere else shouldn't effect our friendly atmosphere here. Escape is about debating without "taking it personally".

You and I have disagreed many times, and agreed on many others, but I hope you wouldn't tell me in front of everyone you didn't want to talk to me anymore.

antryg · 10-20-2002, 10:02 PM

Maybe this discussion should actually be centered around the concept of "The Nature of Evil". Are only humans allowed to be evil? Is all animal behavior "natural" and thus not evil? Is evil behavior "natural" to humans. Since we are all posting on a gaming site we probably all suffer from a tendency to anthropomorosize (ie. assume human characteristics/actions to non-humans). To maintain that perfect balance between human needs/desires with maintaining the ecosystem within a Gaiaan framework takes a greater intellect than mine. How many billions of humans would need to volunteer for death to make this work? I think it is equally absurd to do everything I want because "I" am at the top of the food chain and control the world. (Half of the time we end up with unexpected results even when we try to do good.) I like wolves and think they are beautiful but if one attacks me I will try and kill it. They aren't noble; that is a human concept. They act in ways that are hardwired into their brains. Hungry/see food/get food (They use intelligence and cunning to get food). If I am a "good" person then I will find my place in creation and act in a manner that will enhance the welfare of all living things for the now and the future.

Scholarcs · 10-21-2002, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MagiK:

quote:
Originally posted by pritchke:
We are nature's guardians, or caretakers and we have been doing a very poor job.

Was there an office memo that I missed?

I must have been out sick that day

Though I will admit that in some areas we do a bad job of it, in others we are doing quite well. So as always we need to continue to try to do better, be more efficient andless wasteful.[/QUOTE]Start naming some areas in which we are doing a good job.

The only one I can think of is the fact that in the summer of 01/02 the hole in the ozone layer did not increase in size for the first time in 50 years.

WOLFGIR · 10-21-2002, 04:00 AM

Being a very wolf friendly person, and one who likes predators alot, you will have to take my post for what it is.

I have seen many nice theories here. Some true some well, not as much.
I don´t break my silence here to tell who is right or who not, I´m just not caring enough for that.

About wolves and attacks on humans, they are excidingly rare, but when they happen, an alarm is send out.. Ohhh killer wolves.
How many people are attacked by dogs each year? Pumas, cougars... Humans? I think you can do a research from authorities that have been checking these attacks up and see that the number of fatal attacks are a myth as well

They are very rare, and usually they happens because the people don´t know enough about the animals, IE comes to close to animals with cubs is a normal thing, as well as children running in the tall grass close to cougars is not a good one. Still there are no real patterns, but sometimes I can´t but laugh when I see a tormented bull on the TV give some pain back. Animal friend? Nope, just gleeful.

I´m sorry, but I´m a fatalist and hence I can´t care that much about one wolf attack here and there, sure it is very sad and unfortunate whenever a child gets attacked, killed, injuried regardless of the force that made it so.

I´m also a hunter who has no problem of killing animanls, having grown up in a family with many hunters around me I have certain values from that. What they are, well I´m not gonna bore you.

Do we need to hunt wolves? Yes, we have to. I can only point to Karpatien where they have the riches surounding with wolves and bears in all of Europe so close with populations. The people there are used to them and live close to each other. Wolves and bears are not to unusual in the streets of the cities, of course, they are USED to it, but humans hunt them so they are shy of humans. They have a regulated hunting though which means the animals can continue on being strong.

When it comes to farmers and wild life, I think it is also partly the government that need to take some responsibilty here, of course I cn´t speak generally for anything here as you know, it´s a big world and every place might be different. But there are alot of special hences and protective things (sorry, my english is failig me here) but they are costly. In Sweden you can apply for tax reduction and also gets payment for lost livelystock due to animal attacks. But here we have many extinct animals that are comming slowly back, for example the lynx, the wolf, the bear, several birds of of prey and other birds that are unique to the scandinavian flora, foxes were almost extinct due to sickness a some years ago. The wolverines are also drasticly dying away.

I don´t know the numbers or any facts, but you cab google your way to them, but take Australia for instance who have alot of dangerous animals, traffic still kills more people by 100-1000 (don´t recall exactly the right numner, maybe one of the Auzzies here do..) then wildlife attacks do.

In Sweden, we can´t even compair, the numbers would seem ridicoulus.

So why a post, it really sure, but hey, someone cried wolf

Memnoch · 10-21-2002, 04:59 AM

Let me say one thing and one thing only. I don't have an opinion on this subject, unfortunately. What I DO have an opinion on is the way that discussions/debates are conducted here. I have strong respect for people's right to hold their opinions and be passionate about that, but I have a major issue if that then leads to hurt feelings, causing offence, etc. I find it quite amazing that we can end up with genuine anger over something like a difference of opinion in an interesting topic such as this, which should really be a learning experience and a positive and vigorous exchange of views.

I'm not going to read through all of it - I don't have the time, and I'm not here to mediate disputes between people's opinions (as no one person's opinion is right anyway). I'm going to take the easy and cliche (it's easy and cliche for a good reason) way out and tell everyone to COOL OFF - if the thread continues to deteriorate it will be locked, end of story.

Let's go back to basics and remember the general tenets of our forum:

I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. This is the cornerstone around which the concept of freedom of speech is built, as long as it is done with respect for others.
Debating at Ironworks is not about winning or losing, rather it's about expressing a point of view and listening to another person expressing theirs. There is no shame in agreeing to disagree when the argument starts to go nowhere.
Don't take things personally. Life's too short to get upset about another person's point of view.
If you can't handle people disagreeing with you, then don't get into a debate - you will not enjoy it and it will cause us problems.
A controversial viewpoint expressed politely, tactfully and respectfully will have a better chance of being accepted than a mainstream viewpoint expressed rudely and disrespectfully.
Remember that two of the most difficult things to do on the internet are: 1) admit that you can't change the other person's point of view; and 2) accept that failing to change the other person's point of view does NOT mean they are better than you.

If you all want the full list then click here for our Ironworks Mantras (thank God for the search function).
Cheers, and let's keep things in perspective. [img]smile.gif[/img]

10-21-2002, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scholarcs:

Start naming some areas in which we are doing a good job.

Oh that is totally easy, I can use my home state of Pennsylvania. PA. Is a big coal mining state, and a Big Steele mill state. When I was growing up, you could always tell when you were getting near a town, there would be a brownish gray haze in the air from all the coal smoke. There were many sites where strip mining had left ugly tell tale scars on the landscape and pittsburgh itself had every building covered soot and grime. If you drive through the state now, you can't see evidence of any of this any more. The place is much more beautiful than when I was a kid. PA. is not the lone example either. West Virginia is another and other states are doing the same. The problem with you younger types and some of the older types, you forget or don't know about the way things used to be. You don't remember unlandscaped strip mines, or smog, or un-replanted clear cut forests, or any of the thousand other things that have been corrected. Once they are gone, they are forgotten so that a new generation of eco-worriers can have something to stress over. How about a little credit where credit is due eh?

The only one I can think of is the fact that in the summer of 01/02 the hole in the ozone layer did not increase in size for the first time in 50 years.

According to the science journals I follow the Ozone hole is not only not getting bigger it is markedly smaller and will be gone in less than 50 years. So what do you want? Everything right away no doubt, have some patience. [img]smile.gif[/img]
[/QUOTE]

10-21-2002, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Krustin:

Weren't you the one that mentioned a friend breeding hybrid? Which is it? Do they have them in captivity (and by implication, domesticated) or not?

Which brings us back to my point...where are the hybrids? [/QUOTE]I said I knew of a guy (not a friend) who cross bred Wolves and Dogs. Just because he used their sperm to fertilize a bitch doesnt mean the wolves were domesticated. They were just in captivity.

As for where they are...They are for sale in Minnessotta, and are pretty expensive last I heard which was years ago

[ 10-21-2002, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

10-20-2002, 10:02 PM	#125
antryg Fzoul Chembryl Join Date: August 30, 2002 Location: Dallas, Tx. Age: 21 Posts: 1,765	Maybe this discussion should actually be centered around the concept of "The Nature of Evil". Are only humans allowed to be evil? Is all animal behavior "natural" and thus not evil? Is evil behavior "natural" to humans. Since we are all posting on a gaming site we probably all suffer from a tendency to anthropomorosize (ie. assume human characteristics/actions to non-humans). To maintain that perfect balance between human needs/desires with maintaining the ecosystem within a Gaiaan framework takes a greater intellect than mine. How many billions of humans would need to volunteer for death to make this work? I think it is equally absurd to do everything I want because "I" am at the top of the food chain and control the world. (Half of the time we end up with unexpected results even when we try to do good.) I like wolves and think they are beautiful but if one attacks me I will try and kill it. They aren't noble; that is a human concept. They act in ways that are hardwired into their brains. Hungry/see food/get food (They use intelligence and cunning to get food). If I am a "good" person then I will find my place in creation and act in a manner that will enhance the welfare of all living things for the now and the future. __________________

10-21-2002, 04:00 AM	#127
WOLFGIR Bastet - Egyptian Cat Goddess Join Date: March 1, 2001 Location: Sweden Age: 50 Posts: 3,450	Being a very wolf friendly person, and one who likes predators alot, you will have to take my post for what it is. I have seen many nice theories here. Some true some well, not as much. I don´t break my silence here to tell who is right or who not, I´m just not caring enough for that. About wolves and attacks on humans, they are excidingly rare, but when they happen, an alarm is send out.. Ohhh killer wolves. How many people are attacked by dogs each year? Pumas, cougars... Humans? I think you can do a research from authorities that have been checking these attacks up and see that the number of fatal attacks are a myth as well They are very rare, and usually they happens because the people don´t know enough about the animals, IE comes to close to animals with cubs is a normal thing, as well as children running in the tall grass close to cougars is not a good one. Still there are no real patterns, but sometimes I can´t but laugh when I see a tormented bull on the TV give some pain back. Animal friend? Nope, just gleeful. I´m sorry, but I´m a fatalist and hence I can´t care that much about one wolf attack here and there, sure it is very sad and unfortunate whenever a child gets attacked, killed, injuried regardless of the force that made it so. I´m also a hunter who has no problem of killing animanls, having grown up in a family with many hunters around me I have certain values from that. What they are, well I´m not gonna bore you. Do we need to hunt wolves? Yes, we have to. I can only point to Karpatien where they have the riches surounding with wolves and bears in all of Europe so close with populations. The people there are used to them and live close to each other. Wolves and bears are not to unusual in the streets of the cities, of course, they are USED to it, but humans hunt them so they are shy of humans. They have a regulated hunting though which means the animals can continue on being strong. When it comes to farmers and wild life, I think it is also partly the government that need to take some responsibilty here, of course I cn´t speak generally for anything here as you know, it´s a big world and every place might be different. But there are alot of special hences and protective things (sorry, my english is failig me here) but they are costly. In Sweden you can apply for tax reduction and also gets payment for lost livelystock due to animal attacks. But here we have many extinct animals that are comming slowly back, for example the lynx, the wolf, the bear, several birds of of prey and other birds that are unique to the scandinavian flora, foxes were almost extinct due to sickness a some years ago. The wolverines are also drasticly dying away. I don´t know the numbers or any facts, but you cab google your way to them, but take Australia for instance who have alot of dangerous animals, traffic still kills more people by 100-1000 (don´t recall exactly the right numner, maybe one of the Auzzies here do..) then wildlife attacks do. In Sweden, we can´t even compair, the numbers would seem ridicoulus. So why a post, it really sure, but hey, someone cried wolf __________________ Don´t eat the yellow snow

10-21-2002, 04:59 AM	#128
Memnoch Ironworks Moderator Join Date: February 28, 2001 Location: Boston/Sydney Posts: 11,771	Let me say one thing and one thing only. I don't have an opinion on this subject, unfortunately. What I DO have an opinion on is the way that discussions/debates are conducted here. I have strong respect for people's right to hold their opinions and be passionate about that, but I have a major issue if that then leads to hurt feelings, causing offence, etc. I find it quite amazing that we can end up with genuine anger over something like a difference of opinion in an interesting topic such as this, which should really be a learning experience and a positive and vigorous exchange of views. I'm not going to read through all of it - I don't have the time, and I'm not here to mediate disputes between people's opinions (as no one person's opinion is right anyway). I'm going to take the easy and cliche (it's easy and cliche for a good reason) way out and tell everyone to COOL OFF - if the thread continues to deteriorate it will be locked, end of story. Let's go back to basics and remember the general tenets of our forum: I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. This is the cornerstone around which the concept of freedom of speech is built, as long as it is done with respect for others. Debating at Ironworks is not about winning or losing, rather it's about expressing a point of view and listening to another person expressing theirs. There is no shame in agreeing to disagree when the argument starts to go nowhere. Don't take things personally. Life's too short to get upset about another person's point of view. If you can't handle people disagreeing with you, then don't get into a debate - you will not enjoy it and it will cause us problems. A controversial viewpoint expressed politely, tactfully and respectfully will have a better chance of being accepted than a mainstream viewpoint expressed rudely and disrespectfully. Remember that two of the most difficult things to do on the internet are: 1) admit that you can't change the other person's point of view; and 2) accept that failing to change the other person's point of view does NOT mean they are better than you. If you all want the full list then click here for our Ironworks Mantras (thank God for the search function). Cheers, and let's keep things in perspective. [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________

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10-20-2002, 08:25 PM	#123
Attalus Symbol of Bane Join Date: November 26, 2001 Location: Texas Age: 75 Posts: 8,167	LOL, jumping in late on a thread like this is usually a good way to get your head bitten off, but, here goes, from a biology major. Dogs and wolves and coyotes are, biologically, the same species. They can, and do, interbreed. From a population standpoint, wolves and coyotes are breeds of dogs. From an evolutionary point of view, dogs are a breed of wolves. Ranchers hate coyotes because they maim and kill stock, and on one notable occasion that I winessed, a litter of puppies and their mother. I shall take no position further than that.

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