Aid Money - to get things into perspective

[Silver Cheetah]

quote:

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Originally posted by Neb:


For god's sake Silver, what do you lose by apologizing? NOTHING! What might you lose by NOT apologizing? A friend! Or maybe even more than one!

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Neb, let's continue this via PM. There is absolutely no point continuing this here. Can you access AIM? I still can't.

[Neb]

quote:

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:



Neb, let's continue this via PM. There is absolutely no point continuing this here. Can you access AIM? I still can't.

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I can access AIM, but Hiram isn't on at the moment anyway, PM away as much as you want and I'll answer them.

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Naked Wild Man:


You are missing the point entirely.

I am not saying the US should do this or that.

I am attaching the appropriate lable to what it already does.

Sure, a miser does not have to spend his wealth on the poor, but then he has no grounds for wanting to be called a generous person either.

This is not telling the US what to do, it is being accurate in descriptive language.

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It is neither accurate or descriptive, but it is rude.

Your point is to only see the down side, the bad, the lack of complying to whatever level you personally set. A miser wouldn't spend any money on anyone else would he? To call anyone a miser who gives more money than most is insensative at best and biased at worst. Judging people who do give is, in and of itself, an uncharitable deed.

If a billionare offered you a million dollars, an ordinary guy offered you a thousand, and you could only accept one of the gifts, which would you take? If our nation only gives 10% which feeds 1,000 people and another nation gives 90% which feeds 100 people, who fed more people?

Call it what you will, but it doesn't make you right, or insightful.

[Naked Wild Man]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:



It is neither accurate or descriptive, but it is rude.

Your point is to only see the down side, the bad, the lack of complying to whatever level you personally set. A miser wouldn't spend any money on anyone else would he? To call anyone a miser who gives more money than most is insensative at best and biased at worst. Judging people who do give is, in and of itself, an uncharitable deed.

If a billionare offered you a million dollars, an ordinary guy offered you a thousand, and you could only accept one of the gifts, which would you take? If our nation only gives 10% which feeds 1,000 people and another nation gives 90% which feeds 100 people, who fed more people?

Call it what you will, but it doesn't make you right, or insightful.

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LOL. Tell you what.

You have the honesty and integrity to admit that the US is NOT one of the most generous developed countries in the world (compared to its wealth) and I'll have no more to say on the subject.

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:


Sorry Ron, missed this post of yours completely! Well done on the weight loss, - that's awesome. I love the sound of your Zuchinni lasagna. Probably not quite vegan - did you use dairy to make the sauce? Although it's quite easy to make vegan lasangna with soya milk, which I don't like for drinking, but it works great in place of dairy for cooking!

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OK, then it was my semi-vegan zucchini lasanga...lol.

BTW, check your PM's

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Naked Wild Man:


LOL. Tell you what.

You have the honesty and integrity to admit that the US is NOT one of the most generous developed countries in the world (compared to its wealth) and I'll have no more to say on the subject.

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I've said it before, so no problem, the US is not the most generous! That was never the point. The point was that neither are we miserly. We give lots, and it is important to those who receive the aid, and those who dismiss it "out of hand" as not being "enough" do US a disservice.

Sorry if the original post seemed a little harsh [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Cloudbringer]

quote:

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:


Sorry Cloudy, milk and water isn't my style. If that is what is required, anyone is free to tell me to go at any time, and I'll be happy to comply.

To continue with the mud frolics - you may not be rude, Cloudy, but you sure as hell can be patronising. People's different styles of interaction are what makes the forum an interesting place to be, if somewhat infuriating at times.

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This is a general comment, meant to answer your post and not specifically about you.

I am one of the people who was offended and put off by the general America Bashing that Ronn (Bless him!) keeps subtly and not so subtly trying to point to (as it isn't specific to the topic of the war) and the overtly sarcastic or outride obnoxious way some people were responding to others. I am one of few who bothered to say something on this forum about it until it got so bad people were being suspended, banned and leaving out of disgust. Then a fair number of IW members complained about the atmosphere here in this Forum.

If you perceive my dismay at those events or my dislike of sarcastic/caustic treatment of fellow posters as 'patronising' I'm sorry. I have no quarrel with anyone who wants to disagree with me by stating his/her opinion or facts to back up that opinion without flames and sarscasm. I have no problem with those who hold their opinons and express them with conviction. I do have a real problem with anyone being hurt and feeling they shouldn't post because they might get verbally shredded by someone else.

Right now, Hiram has ceased posting here and he only managed to do it twice that I'm aware of. He's not the only lurker who might like to post an opinion these days, but I'm quite certain many of them will think twice after seeing this series of posts. And that makes me unhappy... no, to be more accurate, it makes me very irritable.

Ziroc put this forum up as a courtesy to people who like to have political debates and wanted to talk about he war and terrorism. Sometimes I think it's become the "how ornery can I be today and not get in trouble" forum. [img]tongue.gif[/img] (that's a joke, folks! )

Cloudy

[Silver Cheetah]

quote:

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Originally posted by Cloudbringer:



This is a general comment, meant to answer your post and not specifically about you.

I am one of the people who was offended and put off by the general America Bashing that Ronn (Bless him!) keeps subtly and not so subtly trying to point to (as it isn't specific to the topic of the war) and the overtly sarcastic or outride obnoxious way some people were responding to others. I am one of few who bothered to say something on this forum about it until it got so bad people were being suspended, banned and leaving out of disgust. Then a fair number of IW members complained about the atmosphere here in this Forum.

If you perceive my dismay at those events or my dislike of sarcastic/caustic treatment of fellow posters as 'patronising' I'm sorry. I have no quarrel with anyone who wants to disagree with me by stating his/her opinion or facts to back up that opinion without flames and sarscasm. I have no problem with those who hold their opinons and express them with conviction. I do have a real problem with anyone being hurt and feeling they shouldn't post because they might get verbally shredded by someone else.

Right now, Hiram has ceased posting here and he only managed to do it twice that I'm aware of. He's not the only lurker who might like to post an opinion these days, but I'm quite certain many of them will think twice after seeing this series of posts. And that makes me unhappy... no, to be more accurate, it makes me very irritable.

Ziroc put this forum up as a courtesy to people who like to have political debates and wanted to talk about he war and terrorism. Sometimes I think it's become the "how ornery can I be today and not get in trouble" forum. [img]tongue.gif[/img] (that's a joke, folks! )

Cloudy

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Cloudy, debates get heated sometimes. I did not attack or insult Hiram, who I like very much.

The fact that Hiram has not posted for an hour or two does not mean he has left the forum.

Can we stop all this now, PLEASE, and get on with our lives, whether that includes posting or not?

[Ronn_Bman]

Just a few interesting points found on the webpage listed in Cheeta's original post.

First, I am not complaining that the US is a poor nation, although we do have our fair share of poverty(by Western, not 3rd world standards). Looking at the percentages of humanitarian aid, is only a look at the small picture.

Take a look at the GDP per capita graph! Since each government has to spend a certain amount on each citizen, it has to come into account that a country with a larger population has to spend more. Switzerland had a larger GDP per capita than the US by about $4,000 dollars per citizian, and many EU member are in the same basic range as the US.

A look at the percentages for unemployment shows unemployment in the US is nearly triple the percentage in Japan, which in turn has to be multiplied by the larger population. All of those people have to be cared for by the government.

I've mentioned it before, but the US has a military budget which I doubt few come close to percentage wise, much less in actual money spent. The ability to defend ourselves at home and abroad comes at a high price. There are those who will say then stop spending so much, but we really can't and our allies also benefit from this global force at no charge. I'll also point out that the US provides most of the troops and units in most UN actions. Not saying that as a brag, but those things are not free or even cheap.

Finally, the biggest money item for the US. Not the military, not even close, but Social Security! Caring for retired, the disabled, and those who can't otherwise care for themselves takes about half of the US budget.

This isn't to justify the US in terms of generosity, but it does give a look at the bigger picture.

I also wonder if the aid listed on the original chart reflects only monies given to help poor nations, because we have given billions to the Russian's since the fall of the Soviet Union to help stablilize their country, and this is certainly in the interest of the entire world. Interesting that we spent 70 years working on toppling the Soviets, and we've spent billions propping the former Soviets up, so they don't topple too hard.

Just food for thought [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Silver Cheetah]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:
Just a few interesting points found on the webpage listed in Cheeta's original post.

First, I am not complaining that the US is a poor nation, although we do have our fair share of poverty(by Western not 3rd world terms). Looking at the percentages of humanitarian aid, is only a look at the small picture.

Take a look at the GDP per capita graph! Since the government has to spend a certain amount on every citizen, it has to come into account that a country with a larger population has to spend more. Switzerland had a larger GDP per capita than the US by about $4,000 dollars per citizian, and many EU member are in the same basic range.

A look at the percentages for unemployment shows unemployment in the US is nearly triple the percentage in Japan, which then has to be multiplied by the larger population. All of those people have to be cared for by the government.

I've mentioned it before, but the US has a military budget which few come close to percentage wise, much less in actual money spent. The ability to defend ourselves at home and abroad comes at a high price. There are those who will say stop spending so much then, but our allies benefit from this force as well as we do. I'll also point out that the US provides most of the troops and units in most UN actions. Not saying that as a brag, but those things are not free or even cheap.

Finally, the big money taker. Social Security! Caring for retired, people, the disabled, and those who can't otherwise care for themselves takes about half of the US budget.

This isn't to justify the US in terms of generousity, but it does give a look at the bigger picture. I also wonder if the aid listed on the original chart reflects only monies given to help poor nations, because we have given billions to the Russian's since the fall of the Soviet Union to help stablilize their country, and this is certainly in the interest of the entire world.

Just food for thought [img]smile.gif[/img]

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Some interesting points there Ron, thanks, I shall go back and take another look!

Switzerland is indeed a rich country. Most of can't even afford to have a coffee passing through [img]smile.gif[/img] Being the world's banker (well, some elements of it!) is quite lucrative, I do believe. Being a neutral country probably pays dividends also! I should think their arms budget is quite low. Just guessing here........