A Debate on Homosexuality

[fable]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hiram Sedai:

I struggled to stay out of this but...here I go:

Now that I can read your text, I can reply. Thank you for changing colors. Your first question about if a person is "redeemable"...

---

...wasn't a question, but a statement explaining how Axil might perceive the notion of "evil" as attaching to actions, as opposed to individuals. I bet my use of the word "redeemable" muddied waters--I knew it would. And you're being inebriated didn't help, either, especially since you didn't offer me any. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Fable, I don't believe that Axil was being "heavy handed".

Neither did I. I was addressing Lavindathar's response to Axil; my post quoted and addressed Lavindathar, and his remarks.

You are welcome to poke me with the sharp stick in that it is not an inuendo having to do with rampant homosexual phallic infractions.

Perhaps I'll poke you instead with a church steeple, yet another ancient phallic symbol attached to "pagan" religions, which was appropriated by The Only True Church.

Edited to end your infernal font color and to state my disclaimer. I am now 2.5 sheets to the wind due to inebriation.

Still waiting for mine. What are you having? [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Hiram Sedai]

quote:

---

Originally posted by fable:


...wasn't a question, but a statement explaining how Axil might perceive the notion of "evil" as attaching to actions, as opposed to individuals. I bet my use of the word "redeemable" muddied waters--I knew it would. And you're being inebriated didn't help, either, especially since you didn't offer me any. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Fable, I don't believe that Axil was being "heavy handed".

Neither did I. I was addressing Lavindathar's response to Axil; my post quoted and addressed Lavindathar, and his remarks.

You are welcome to poke me with the sharp stick in that it is not an inuendo having to do with rampant homosexual phallic infractions.

Perhaps I'll poke you instead with a church steeple, yet another ancient phallic symbol attached to "pagan" religions, which was appropriated by The Only True Church.

Edited to end your infernal font color and to state my disclaimer. I am now 2.5 sheets to the wind due to inebriation.

Still waiting for mine. What are you having? [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QB]

---

What church do you believe is the "true church"? I truly didn't know that you were replying to so many people's posts because you didn't mention that many names in your posts. Intriguing. Your multitasking ablitities are far beyond my comprehension. I tend to name the people I reply to as a courtesy.

Regarding, Axil. We are still waiting for him to say something. You are welcome to verbally berate me in the mean time. I say that people living in NJ are bereft of morals and hygeine. What say you?

PS...for the the love of whatever deity you may worship...please end the font color you start with at the end of your pedantic mewlings.

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: Hiram Sedai ]

[fable]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hiram Sedai:
What church do you believe is the "true church"?

---

None. I was waxing ironic on the way quite a few churches (starting with the pre-RRC, pre-Eastern Orthodox, Orthodox Church) refer to themselves and their believers. I put a wink in, but it was at the end of the paragraph, not at the end of that sentence, so my intent probably wasn't clear.

I truly didn't know that you were replying to so many people's posts because you didn't mention that many names in your posts.

I wasn't. I was responding to only one post: Lavindathar's. He mentioned Axil. Reading when you're not two sheet to the wind will help tack a clearer course.

Intriguing. Your multitasking ablitities are far beyond my comprehension. I tend to name the people I reply to as a courtesy.

So do I, which is why I did. [img]smile.gif[/img] Again, I named the person I was replying to, and I refered in my message to a person he'd named. That was all.

Regarding, Axil. We are still waiting for him to say something.

Actually, no. While I was writing my reply to Lavindathar, Axil responded to him, and got his post in first. So Axil beat my response--but the point is, he did respond.

You are welcome to verbally berate me in the mean time. I say that people living in NJ are bereft of morals and hygeine. What say you?

I would only add that they have all the cynicism of the big city without any of its cultural openness, and all the small-minded suspicion of the country, without any of the sense of serenity and order one finds in smaller communities. They are loud, rude, discourteous, grasping, unmoved by beauty, dull, insipid, abusive to their children, unconcerned for their future wellfare, and obsessed with sports and lawn care.

I can see we're going to get along, fine. [img]smile.gif[/img]

PS...for the the love of whatever deity you may worship...please end the font color you start with at the end of your pedantic mewlings.

May all your children grow up to look like you.


[ 01-12-2002: Message edited by: fable ]

[Chewbacca]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MagiK:


Chewy being tolerant is not always a good thing, should we tolerate pedophilia? should we tolerate murder, rape and mayhem? I think not, it is right and THE right of a society to set its rules for acceptable behavior. And in this case the majority rules, if you are a minority then you had better get used to the idea that you will not have an equal voice to the majority. 1 man/woman/person 1 vote, We as a society seem to have accepted homosexualty to a degree as long as it does not get flaunted too publicly (by acceptance I mean we dont drag them out and burn them at the stake (for the most part)) If you are a minority and you push too hard for something the majority doesnt want, you are going to loose. Societies exist to further the common goals of the majority of the people, it isnt to further the goals of an individual or small segment of the population which brings me back to the ida I want to respond to someone else with....

---

The type of tolerance one must have for pedofiles, rapist, murders, ect. is far different than the type I advocate in my above post.THat sort of tolerance demands firm justice as well. The infliction of harm that is caused by these crime makes it obvious it is on a diferent scale than the kind of tolerance that is social.

The kind of tolerance I advocate is akin to racial or religious tolerance. Cultural tolerance. The celebration of our diversity.

Choosing to build a society based on individual freedoms and rights, the ideals of democracy, demands a broad base of cultural tolerance. The majority and minority are each due fair and equal rights. Until all such culture groups are gauranteed fair accsess to all rights due, then we are not as great a society as we could be.

In the end it is individuals, whether working together, or alone, that shape and change the world. Neither the majority nor the minority can do a thing about it.

[Durwyn]

Homosexuality... Well, first off, for the starter of this post... Man wtf, not a good move.

No my view on it, I was raised strongly as Christian-Orthodox. And I can agree, that Man liking a Man is going against God, against what Christianity is. But love, is love, and a lot of time, as a matter of fact most of the times, especially in Europe and some parts of America, homosexuality starts from using drugs, and ends up with two men making love. And then there is another side of it, when men, mostly mature men, actually have a different view on it rather then drug use, they actually really love each other. Just like husband and wife. That is rare, most of homosexuals are at age 15-20, thats teen years, thus, years of arrogancy and stupidity. Yea in some cases its not true, but well overall.

So basically society is left with no choice but to accpet this, and well have an open head for christ sake, I'm a straight man but I dont despise homosexuals...

[WOLFGIR]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tobbin:


Yes, that is what I was trying to say. As a people, we are not yet ready. We are getting there. It takes awhile before a society changes. Whether we will get there in my lifetime or not, I can't say. I think eventually that we will find an equilibrium with each other. In many ways, it seems the only way that we as a people can survive.

---

First of all! Hi there Tobbin! Good to see you friend! "HOOOOOOOOOWL" to long between the occasions!

And to the second part.
Yep, I think that even though I have no trouble with gayparents adopting kids since I think that loving and caring parents are the most important for kids, the society has to be a more accepting place for this before it will turn out for the best. One sad thing is that if there are no gayparents, it will always remain a odd thing that people can angry or upset about.. We have no problem accepting single parents that bust their asses to make a life and raise kids on their own. So well, if their where two guys or two women instead of one..??
Well, I see your point clearly and I can´t say that it seems like any country is truly ready for this. In sweden gay couples can not be married in the church, but they can have the er state marriage(?) in the church and held by a priest. Some priests still refuse to do that, but many preists (and prietsess ) do hold it to be as close as a church wedding and they perform this state marriage in the church for gaypeople. I think this is a gret solution. Weddings are between a male and a female as a defacto from the bible, but the state marriage has the seame bond for both legal and affectionate level and can be performed without a hassle. Soon perhaps we don´t have to have diffferent versions of weddings, but still, alot of couples (gay or hetro and whatever..) have statemarriages as well since they are atheists and finds the churchwedding a lie for them.
The problem would then be for believing gay people. They can´t do what the rest of their friends in the church can do...

Well, with time and education, I hope that understanding will come. Cause this is the same problem and the same solution to fight racism and other stupid superiority ideas with.

[Melusine]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tobbin:


Yes, that is what I was trying to say. As a people, we are not yet ready. We are getting there. It takes awhile before a society changes. Whether we will get there in my lifetime or not, I can't say. I think eventually that we will find an equilibrium with each other. In many ways, it seems the only way that we as a people can survive.

---

Tobbin, thanks for that story. You know what? It couldn't have happened in the Netherlands. I know quite a few homosexual couples and since a couple of years it is ok for them to get married here. They are also allowed to have children, though naturally it's a lot more 'hassle' than for ordinary couples. However, it is a perfectly accepted part of our society. There are many celebrities in Holland who are openly gay and there's at least one that I know of who has adopted a child with his partner. If such a child went to school here, the other children would quite possibly be curious about his/her domestic situation, but it would run an equal risk of getting bullied as any other kid, not a higher one.
You see, it isn't the homosexual parents an sich that have a negative influence on the child's development, but, as you pointed out as well, it's the rigid society that thinks it can make life a living hell for the child because it grew up in a different household than they did. It's been proven that kids with two parents of the same sex do not become gay themselves ( ) and that, if the relationship is good, there are no ill effects on the child. It is also true that gay people have to go through a lot more trouble to get married and have a child than straight couples, and therefore, they usually are a lot surer that this is what they want. It wouldn't surprise me if the divorce rate here in Holland was lower among gays. Tests have also shown that most gay couples have a diverse and reliable circle of friends, so that the fear that their child will never see someone of the other sex is unjustified too. In fact, a lot of gay women couples who have a child here, ask a close male friend to donate semen to impregnate one of the women. The child will be told who his real father is, and the father will visit often. Actually I'm quite proud of our tolerant society. I haven't seen anybody ever benefit from (racist) hatred, not even the racists themselves.

quote:

---

Well, you are correct also, what i don't like is that some here just keep on trying in vain... well gay people who want to be women to some extent only, and that is what i just don't like about some people. if i am asked, i would simply answer i have nothing about them. and this would be just a side comment.

---

Bahamut, I wish you would stop bringing this up. I already told you it's a DIFFERENT thing! Men who want to be women aren't even necessarily gay, they are transsexual! They feel the same as you would, were you to wake up in a female body tomorrow. They feel as if they are trapped inside the wrong body. To their mind, they really ARE female, just in the wrong body, so if they like men, to them that's heterosexuality. This is a serious disorder but there is nothing to be despised about it. Again, I'm glad I live in a tolerant, sensible country, where the few people who are born like this (and I'm NOT talking drag queens) can be councelled and even get surgery. What you are talking about, I think, are just effeminate gay men. Well, tough luck if you don't like their behaviour! I'm not particularly fond of it either, but you are sounding so intolerant of people's differences I can't believe it.

[Bahamut]

I didn't say everybody Mel, some are really what you say and some are effeminate perhaps. The other thing here, our society is split into two with these kind of things. First, we were colonized by the Spaniards, bringing religion and all that, and we are a Roman Catholic country, and not just that, traditional pious men and women are the ones who exist in this town. As they debate it, Homosexuality is a sin, it should not be tolerated blah blah, and it is like taking what God has given you for granted. The other half says still, these are gods people and we must treat them with the proper respect and all that which i agree on. anyways, our society here, rather smaller than yours, are even more disorganized and intolerant than you guys there which now surprises me. I am touched when you said that homosexuality is openly accepted there, compared to here, there will still be some unrest in the society you live in. It sucks I know but these are one of the things that keeps me torn apart. I know that we should let them be, but then I still make it sound like I loathe them. These are just of a few things on why i just go in circles... who knows?

[Bahamut]

Damn slow internet here... sorry!

[ 01-12-2002: Message edited by: Bahamut ]

[Durwyn]

This is a sick thread, really is... Well dont worry, soon the world will sin SO FRIGGIN MUCH that I swear the mighty Lord, the God, the energy of all living will send a comet to this sinned earth and rinse the earth of all sinned.

In the past couple decades the world has gotten way too many "evil" people. And homosexuality is a MAJOR sin against God. I dont care what religion you are, I swear one day Humanity will be extint due to Gods work, and he will do the right thing... Dont bash me now, for I speak Gods truth as a strong Orthodox. Quite scary you might think, but its the truth. I've been all over the world, a lot of bad people trust me... heh..

And look at it this way, God made Women and Men to be for each other, to engage in sexual intercourse, not Men and Men. Its just not right, its wrong. A lot of homosexuals as I've said erlier in thread turn gay because they are depressed or cant get any women, or were treated bad by women or their mother/sister. Its all in your head basically, if you let your mind take over this much to make you crazy and turn gay well... Its wrong, thats all I will say. I deal with it however, I wont go up to gay person and bash him or say its wrong, I have quite a few homorsexual friends, and I never say thing and we're in good relations. But deep inside, I always disagree with their views on relationship.

[ 01-12-2002: Message edited by: Durwyn ]